Did Bush Lie?

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Elaine's Cross:
As hard as it may be to believe, I was a bigger critic of Clinton than I am of Mr. Bush, however, we must remember that Mr. Bush is president in the here and now. Mr. Clinton is the past. We can only learn from his mistakes, which were many, as we should learn from Mr. Bush’s, whose mistakes IMO are even more numerous, if not more heinous.
Can you point us to any of your posts where you were critical of Clinton? How about a post where you were critical of any leberal democrat? joe Wilson?(talk about a liat?)
 
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Digger71:
Remind me, as I forget, how many civilians, soldiers and others died as a result of Clinton’s lie?
Why limit the scope of the question (but note the inclusion of deaths resulting due to his lies)? Deaths due to President Clinton’s decisions include:
  • A government siege of the Branch Davidian compound ordered by the Clinton administration at Waco, Texas, results in the deaths of 80 people.
  • A powerful truck bomb exploded outside the Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, tearing the front from the building, blasting a crater 35 feet deep, and killing 19 American soldiers. Those soldiers were in Dhahran because President Clinton approved them being there.
  • The U.S. under President Clinton was the leader of the bombing campaign against Kosovo. NATO aircraft attacked an Albanian refugee convoy, believing it was a Serbian military convoy, killing around 50 people.
  • The use of technologies such as depleted uranium ammunition and cluster bombs in this bombing campaign was highly controversial, as was the bombing of oil refineries and chemical plants, which led to accusations of “environmental warfare”. Allegedly, many deformed babies were born after the war, and the BBC has estimated that around 10,000 cancer deaths may result from this pollution.
  • President Clinton lied about the scope of the ethnic cleansing in order to win approval for military action against Kosovo. CNN reported, “Accusing Serbia of ‘ethnic cleansing’ in Kosovo similar to the genocide of Jews in World War II, an impassioned President Clinton sought Tuesday to rally public support for his decision to send U.S. forces into combat against Yugoslavia, a prospect that seemed increasingly likely with the breakdown of a diplomatic peace effort.” the numbers given by Clinton and his administration have been proven false. The official NATO body count of the events in Kosovo was 2,788 (not all of them were war crimes victims), with Slobodan Milošević charged with the “murders of about 600 individually identified ethnic Albanians.”
Finally, what is the acceptable body count? We’re to excuse those killed under President Clinton’s administrations because the number was smaller?

If it weren’t for double standards, most critics of President Bush wouldn’t have standards.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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estesbob:
Can you point us to any of your posts where you were critical of Clinton? How about a post where you were critical of any leberal democrat? joe Wilson?(talk about a liat?)
When I came on to this forum, Clinton was no longer president. Thus, in my opinion, he is totally irrelevant in most ways. We can learn from his mis-deeds and mistakes, but that’s about all. I do not want Clinton to be involved in our government any time in the future nor do I want to see him as head of the UN. I also do not want to see Hillary as president.

If we wish to change the policy and direction of this country, we must direct our criticisms toward the Bush Administration. Clinton is history.

It’s that simple as far as I’m concerned.

As to Joe Wilson or any liberal democrat, most of my posts have been on our country’s Iraq venture with maybe a few on government spending and regulation. When it comes to government regulation and spending, the Bush Admin, with the help of the Republican-controlled Congress has, IMO, been liberal in its practices. As to the Iraq venture, I cite my previous opinion that war is neither a liberal nor a conservative activity, politically speaking. It is not just liberals and leftists that are against the Iraq venture; many conservatives, moderates, independents, and libertarians are also in the opposition.

I consider myself to be much more conservative than Mr. Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress and will be glad to point out specifics as to why if you wish to go into detail.
 
There are many people that feel that Clinton was, and is, an inveterate liar, if not a pathological liar. As I have not had access to his psych reports, I reserve judgement. However, in at least one instance (Monica Lewinsky), he was proven to be a liar.

As for Mr. Bush, I don’t think he has lied as such. I do feel that his personal biases have interfered with his judgement with regard to policy matters. These biases caused him to cherry-pick information to sell his POV to the American public, to slant the truth. The shame of it, IMO, is that he will not change course because with these biases he is like an addict in denial.

All in all, I think Clinton was a more successful president, but only because a Republican-dominated Congress acted like a true opposition party and held his feet to the fire on many, though not all issues. As much as I dislike the Democratic Party, I feel the country would have been better served during the Bush presidency if the Dems had controlled at least one house of Congress and truly functioned as an oppostion party.
 
Elaine's Cross:
There are many people that feel that Clinton was, and is, an inveterate liar, if not a pathological liar. As I have not had access to his psych reports, I reserve judgement. However, in at least one instance (Monica Lewinsky), he was proven to be a liar.

As for Mr. Bush, I don’t think he has lied as such. I do feel that his personal biases have interfered with his judgement with regard to policy matters. These biases caused him to cherry-pick information to sell his POV to the American public, to slant the truth. The shame of it, IMO, is that he will not change course because with these biases he is like an addict in denial.

All in all, I think Clinton was a more successful president, but only because a Republican-dominated Congress acted like a true opposition party and held his feet to the fire on many, though not all issues. As much as I dislike the Democratic Party, I feel the country would have been better served during the Bush presidency if the Dems had controlled at least one house of Congress and truly functioned as an oppostion party.
IMO the Democrats have functioned as an opposition party quite well. They have opposed everything the administration has proposed. They choose to wait until Social Security is bankrupted right before their eyes before they will be willing to admit that something needs to be done. They look like they are going to do everything in their power to block the Alito nomination. My gripe has been that the Republicans are sitting back, letting them get away with all of this. Dems tactics are “if you say something often enough, people will believe it”. It’s sad that so many folks form their opinions on sound bites and make no effort to find out if what they have heard is true.

I think this thread is about to outlive its usefulness. Those who want to define a lie the way the Dems are now doing are not going to be swayed by dictionary definitions of a “lie”. Those of us who believe that the President did not lie, but made up his mind on erroneous facts will not be swayed either.

Finally, if there were less career politicians in all of the branches of government we would all be better off. The State Department and the Department of Defense have been at odds for years and the career politicians in the State Department think they run the foreign policy of the country and woe to the president who does not agree with them. JMHO.
 
Elaine's Cross:
When I came on to this forum, Clinton was no longer president. Thus, in my opinion, he is totally irrelevant in most ways. We can learn from his mis-deeds and mistakes, but that’s about all. I do not want Clinton to be involved in our government any time in the future nor do I want to see him as head of the UN. I also do not want to see Hillary as president.

If we wish to change the policy and direction of this country, we must direct our criticisms toward the Bush Administration. Clinton is history.

It’s that simple as far as I’m concerned.

As to Joe Wilson or any liberal democrat, most of my posts have been on our country’s Iraq venture with maybe a few on government spending and regulation. When it comes to government regulation and spending, the Bush Admin, with the help of the Republican-controlled Congress has, IMO, been liberal in its practices. As to the Iraq venture, I cite my previous opinion that war is neither a liberal nor a conservative activity, politically speaking. It is not just liberals and leftists that are against the Iraq venture; many conservatives, moderates, independents, and libertarians are also in the opposition.

I consider myself to be much more conservative than Mr. Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress and will be glad to point out specifics as to why if you wish to go into detail.
Fair Enough.
 
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Lance:
Over 3000 at the WTC. He lied to us about keeping us secure while he was raping the CIA and othe intelligence agencies.
How odd, I distinctly remember Bush being president at that point. And Bush cutting anti-terrorist funding, and Bush being warned about the attacks.

Of course, I hear it all the time from Republicans, how it was all Clintons fault. The facts are starkly different.

I take these link from simple google searches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=39039

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=44925

First, get over Clinton. He wasn’t in power.

Secondly, remember Bush was warned about Bin Laden.

Third, deal with the cognative dissonance by place fault with the incumbant president.
 
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Digger71:
How odd, I distinctly remember Bush being president at that point. And Bush cutting anti-terrorist funding, and Bush being warned about the attacks.

Of course, I hear it all the time from Republicans, how it was all Clintons fault. The facts are starkly different.

I take these link from simple google searches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=39039

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=44925

First, get over Clinton. He wasn’t in power.

Secondly, remember Bush was warned about Bin Laden.

Third, deal with the cognative dissonance by place fault with the incumbant president.
First Wikepedia is not much of a source for anything as it is filled with whatever garbage any poster wantsto add to it. Try using it as a surce in a paper of any credible university and youll get a resounding “F”

Second citing americanprogress.org is like quoting Pravda’s opinion of Ronald Reagan

Third I dont Blame the incumbent Presdident or Clinton-I blame the terrorists. I am pleased, however, that when we were attacked when Bush was Presdident he called in the Marines rather than the Clinton preferred method of fighting terrorism-call in the Lawyers.
 
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estesbob:
I am pleased, however, that when we were attacked when Bush was Presdident he called in the Marines rather than the Clinton preferred method of fighting terrorism-call in the Lawyers.
Maybe Bush should have called in the lawyers, or the right lawyers, and then maybe he wouldn’t have embarked on some un-Constiutional policies and legislation.
 
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Digger71:
How odd, I distinctly remember Bush being president at that point. And Bush cutting anti-terrorist funding, and Bush being warned about the attacks.

Of course, I hear it all the time from Republicans, how it was all Clintons fault. The facts are starkly different.

I take these link from simple google searches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=39039

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=44925

First, get over Clinton. He wasn’t in power.

Secondly, remember Bush was warned about Bin Laden.

Third, deal with the cognative dissonance by place fault with the incumbant president.
Don’t know what anti-terrorist funding you are talking about. Please enlighten. Cuts in covert activity came from several Democrat administrations. Perhaps GW was warned about Osama bin Laden, HOWEVER President Clinton received several “shots across the bow” i.e. first Trade Center bombing, incident on the Achille Lauro (forgive spelling), and the bombing of the USS Cole. We had several other warnings from terrorists that we did not heed. I did check one of the websites, the one about Florida elections. Finding the falacies in it that I did, I did not check the others. Just a few points: 1. press called the election in 2000 in Florida before the polls closed on the west side of the state; 2. Floridians had been using the butterfly ballot for many years, as have other states, 3. I admit I don’t know about the felons but I do know that many folks, particularly on the east coast of the state, voted and still vote in two states, one by absentee ballot. How do I know this? I was there.
 
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Digger71:
How odd, I distinctly remember Bush being president at that point. And Bush cutting anti-terrorist funding, and Bush being warned about the attacks.

Of course, I hear it all the time from Republicans, how it was all Clintons fault. The facts are starkly different.

I take these link from simple google searches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=39039

americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=44925

First, get over Clinton. He wasn’t in power.

Secondly, remember Bush was warned about Bin Laden.

Third, deal with the cognative dissonance by place fault with the incumbant president.
I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. Clinton cut intelligence spending and his Democrat friends in Congress fought Bush’s attampts to restore it. If you do some research through RELIABLE sources (estesbob cound not be more correct about your sources) into the Able Danger scandal you will find that the hijackers were identified by name and Clinton’s Justice department blocked their arrest by the FBI. That’s right, the Clinton administration took action to PROTECT the highjackers. Clinton also ignored no less than THREE offers from the Sudan to turn Bin Laden over to us for prosecution. The warning Bush got which you refer to was in the form of attacks Bin Laden carried out during Clinton’s administration that were not responded to.

It is not all Clinton’s fault but he is FAR more responsible than Bush so most of what you “hear from republicans” is much closer to the truth than what you have posted. Please consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.
 
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2shelbys:
I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. Clinton cut intelligence spending and his Democrat friends in Congress fought Bush’s attampts to restore it. If you do some research through RELIABLE sources (estesbob cound not be more correct about your sources) into the Able Danger scandal you will find that the hijackers were identified by name and Clinton’s Justice department blocked their arrest by the FBI. That’s right, the Clinton administration took action to PROTECT the highjackers. Clinton also ignored no less than THREE offers from the Sudan to turn Bin Laden over to us for prosecution. The warning Bush got which you refer to was in the form of attacks Bin Laden carried out during Clinton’s administration that were not responded to.

It is not all Clinton’s fault but he is FAR more responsible than Bush so most of what you “hear from republicans” is much closer to the truth than what you have posted. Please consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.
I read your post and thought “so much misinformation; so little time.” Where to begin? Where to begin?

Then I thought that it just never ends with the Clinton haters; 5 years out of office and they still can’t let go. Move on, my friend, there are new incompetent politicians to harangue. And unfortunately these days, most appeared to be called…Republicans.

I had to laugh when I read your suggestion to “consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.” What’s the saying? “Physician heal thyself.” Please give some sources, preferable credible ones, for your littany of allegations about the former administration.

And by the way, going to bat for our president by simply knocking the former administration is not a credible defense. It makes our president look weak.
 
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Thekla:
I read your post and thought “so much misinformation; so little time.” Where to begin? Where to begin?

Then I thought that it just never ends with the Clinton haters; 5 years out of office and they still can’t let go. Move on, my friend, there are new incompetent politicians to harangue. And unfortunately these days, most appeared to be called…Republicans.

I had to laugh when I read your suggestion to “consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.” What’s the saying? “Physician heal thyself.” Please give some sources, preferable credible ones, for your littany of allegations about the former administration.

And by the way, going to bat for our president by simply knocking the former administration is not a credible defense. It makes our president look weak.
Please enumerate which of the statements by Shelbys2 is incorrect. There are no innocent parties here, but if the Clinton administration had done something about the previous strikes by the terrorists, we might not now be in the situation we are in now. Remember our soldiers being dragged thru the streets in Mogadishu?
 
mary bobo:
Please enumerate which of the statements by Shelbys2 is incorrect. There are no innocent parties here, but if the Clinton administration had done something about the previous strikes by the terrorists, we might not now be in the situation we are in now. Remember our soldiers being dragged thru the streets in Mogadishu?
I don’t have to enumerate which statements are incorrect. It’s for the person bringing the charge to present evidence of that charge, not the other way around.

Mogadishu? I guess that the argument could be made that Bush Sr. is responsible for that fiasco. Why not go back farther to Reagan and Lebanon? Why the focus on Clinton? There’s plenty of blame to go around. Let’s not neglect the incompetence of the current administration to focus on the past. They are in charge. They are responsible. They own it.

I’m not sure why you feel obliged to bring it back to Clinton; he has been out of office for five years. Your own statement suggests that even if he had “done something” we might be in the exact situation we are in.

And what situation would that be? This is our president’s war as it was our president’s decision to invade Iraq. I believe that the reason that a large majority of the American public does not trust the administration is because they have refused to accept responsibility for their bad decisions and incompetent governance.
 
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Thekla:
I read your post and thought “so much misinformation; so little time.” Where to begin? Where to begin?

Then I thought that it just never ends with the Clinton haters; 5 years out of office and they still can’t let go. Move on, my friend, there are new incompetent politicians to harangue. And unfortunately these days, most appeared to be called…Republicans.

I had to laugh when I read your suggestion to “consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.” What’s the saying? “Physician heal thyself.” Please give some sources, preferable credible ones, for your littany of allegations about the former administration.

And by the way, going to bat for our president by simply knocking the former administration is not a credible defense. It makes our president look weak.
You talk about misinformation and make accusations but you never support anything you say with facts as I do. That is because you can not do it. This has nothing to do with “Clinton hating” and everything to do with facts. Facts that are well-known and easily provable to anyone who cares to do some research. As I said, it is certainly not ALL Clinton’s fault but when he ignores three offers to have Bin Laden delivered into our custody for trial it makes him greatly responsible for anything Bin Laden does after that. When a highly placed member of his justice department refuses to let the FBI arrest Mohammed Atta and others connected to him that they have identified BY NAME as a grave threat to the US he becomes greatly responsible for what they do after that. When he cuts the intelligence budget nearly in half he becomes greatly responsible for any intelligence failures that result from it.

You are more guilty of the things you accuse me of than probably anyone else on this thread. You believe what you want to believe no matter how much evidence is presented that proves you completely wrong. All of the things I have said in this thread about Clinton administration failures are common knowledge to anyone who has been paying attention for the last 10 years and they are all easily verifiable. You can look it up yourself. I am not going to bother wasting my time because I know that the reason you have not bothered to look any of this up before now is that your mind is already made up. Bush has definitely made some decisions that I do not agree with but insisting that our current situation is all his fault and pretending that the previous administration had nothing to do with it is supremely naive.
 
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Thekla:
I don’t have to enumerate which statements are incorrect.
Fallacious argument. You made an assertion of misinformation. After doing so it’s your responsibility to validate that assertion with facts.
This is our president’s war as it was our president’s decision to invade Iraq.
Error of fact. It’s America’s war. Both Houses of Congress signed the resolution giving President Bush authority to use force to remove Saddam from office.
 
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thestickman:
Fallacious argument. You made an assertion of misinformation. After doing so it’s your responsibility to validate that assertion with facts.
But why? No one has actually demonstrated that President Bush lied. Not providing demonstration to back up assertions is merely par for the course.

Unless, of course, you have the temerity to say President Bush didn’t lie. Then you have to jump through endless hoops in an effort to provide sufficient documentation to prove a negative.

Again: If it weren’t for double standards, many of those who condemn President Bush wouldn’t have any standards at all.
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thestickman:
Error of fact. It’s America’s war. Both Houses of Congress signed the resolution giving President Bush authority to use force to remove Saddam from office.
No, no. You forget: President Bush lied to Congress in order to dupe them into the war. Bush lied! People died! No blood for oil! Halliburton!

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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2shelbys:
I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. Clinton cut intelligence spending and his Democrat friends in Congress fought Bush’s attampts to restore it. If you do some research through RELIABLE sources (estesbob cound not be more correct about your sources) into the Able Danger scandal you will find that the hijackers were identified by name and Clinton’s Justice department blocked their arrest by the FBI. That’s right, the Clinton administration took action to PROTECT the highjackers. Clinton also ignored no less than THREE offers from the Sudan to turn Bin Laden over to us for prosecution. The warning Bush got which you refer to was in the form of attacks Bin Laden carried out during Clinton’s administration that were not responded to.

It is not all Clinton’s fault but he is FAR more responsible than Bush so most of what you “hear from republicans” is much closer to the truth than what you have posted. Please consult some reliable sources and really learn about the situation.
You all might want to research the Church Amendment, which was probably the first of the legal efforts that successfully emasculated the CIA. After that, the intelligence community was effectively handicapped in data gathering. The Church Amendment pre-dated the Clinton Administration.
 
Al Masetti:
You all might want to research the Church Amendment…
The Cooper-Church Amendment was specifically directed against funding for ground troops and military advisors in Cambodia and Laos. It had little to nothing to do with cuts in intelligence assets during the Clinton administrations.

In other matters: Iraq and Moral Judgment.

"Frequent reference to preventive or preemptive use of military force, and even to ‘wars of choice,’ have only confused the present discussion. War, if it is just, is not an option chosen but a duty imposed. In the present circumstance, military action against Iraq by a coalition of the willing is in response to Iraq’s aggression; first against Kuwait in 1991, then in defiance of the terms of surrender demanding its disarmament, then in support of, if not direct participation in, acts of terrorism. This is joined to its brutal aggression against its own citizens, and its possession of weapons of mass destruction which it can use or permit others to use for further aggression.

“To wait until the worst happens is to wait too long, and leaders guilty of such negligence would rightly be held morally accountable. In the Catholic tradition there is, in fact, a considerable literature relevant to these questions. Augustine, Aquinas, Francisco de Vitoria, and Francisco Suarez, for example, all wrote on prudential action in the face of aggressive threats. The absence of reference to such recognized authorities in the current discussion among Catholics is striking.”

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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2shelbys:
You can look it up yourself. I am not going to bother wasting my time because I know that the reason you have not bothered to look any of this up before now is that your mind is already made up. Bush has definitely made some decisions that I do not agree with but insisting that our current situation is all his fault and pretending that the previous administration had nothing to do with it is supremely naive.
Oh no. That’s not how it goes. I have repeatedly given evidence to my contention that the administration deliberately left the American public with a false impression (lied) for war.

Where are your facts to back up your allegations? Still non-existent I see. And the response “You can look it up yourself” simply reinforces what I said earlier about your need to list some credible sources for your allegations. I don’t have to look them up and do your research for you; you need to back them up.

Even when I ask you for sources, you apparently cannot help but go back to the Clinton bashing. Go right ahead because he’s long gone from the presidency and doesn’t matter to me, but it’s not helping your case.

But as I said, anytime you want to move on, there is a new batch of incompetent politicans to harangue…
 
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