Did Bush Lie?

[Thekla]

mlchance:

And there’s the rub. Critics of the President feel justified in making all sorts of claims without actually having to provide proof (and, no, Thekla, opinion polls aren’t proof). These critics then sit back and demand that others prove the negative of their evidence-less contention.

– Mark L. Chance.

When did I ever say that an opinion poll was proof of a lie? I’ve only said that it’s a statistical measurement (a fact) showing that something like 57% of the people BELIEVE that he lied.

The polls may be wrong but when you have even the Wall Street Journal polling showing that over 60% of Americans think the administration deliberately misleads the public, it’s time to deal with the problem.

I’ve given my “theory of the crime” on many occasions and it goes along the line that the administration deliberately used language to leave the American public with a false impression about the connection between Iraq and 9/11.

However, I have to tell you that the more that I read, the more I am seeing that they were either exaggerating or obvuscating on the issue of WMD’s.

 

[Thekla]

walstan:

Now there’s an interesting comparison, the Dems have said that Bush lied so often, the public now believe it. If this is the case, that repeated offerings eventually convince the public that something that is wrong is right, does this explain why the public believe that the Iraqi’s had WMD’s when they didn’t, that Iraq was directly responsible for 9/11, when they weren’t. Could it actually be that Bush (et al) has said things so often that the public now believe him? Did he lie, NO, was he guilty of uttering truthless inexactitudes? Almost certainly.

Isn’t it ironic that they used repetition over time and allowed many Americans to believe there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11 and are now having repetition over time totally eroding their credibility?

What’s the saying? You reap what you sow.

 

[Jay74]

LOL. Sort of like tennis. Spectators watch the ball go left, right, left, right. And participants make their best, most strategic hit, only to have it come back at 'em.

Honest debate is healthy.

Did Bush Lie? How many licks to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know.

 

[estesbob]

Thekla:

Isn’t it ironic that they used repetition over time and allowed many Americans to believe there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11 and are now having repetition over time totally eroding their credibility?

What’s the saying? You reap what you sow.

Can you provide some links where anyone in the Bush admiistration said there were Iraqi’s on the 9-11 planes? It should not be hard for you to do since you have been claiming for months that they repeated it again and again over time.

 

[Philip_P]

estesbob:

Of course none of this is true. There are not substanial links between the US and Al queda. When corrected on your repeated assertion that were no links between Iraq and al Queda it now appears you wnat to change the subject

Bin Ladin received arms and training from the US when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

The only help given Hussein was sattelite photos during the Iran Iraq war-it was in our best interests and the best interests of the world that Iran NOT overun Iraq

Did you forget all the weapons and equipment we sold him?

Your assertion about our latin American policy is the most specious. It reminds me of all the crocodile tears from the Democrat party when Reagan engineered free elections in Nicaragua-they were amazed when contrary to their claims about support for “Comrade Noriega” the people overwhelmingly threw out the Sandinistas. The same can be said for Panama and Grenada. The biggest abusers of human rights in the region today are Cuba and Venezuala-countries noticeably absent from your rant.

Does someone else’s evil justify our own? I don’t see how Cuba’s human rights abuses are relevant.

You remind me of the people mentioned one of the verses in the “making a list” song in Gilbert and Sullivans Mikado. The Lord high executioner condemns ;

“People who praise
in enthusiatic tones
every country but the one they’re in
every century but their own”

If I didn’t love the United States, I wouldn’t care about what’s happening to it. It angers me to see my country’s good name being dragged through the mud by our leaders. This is my future, and my country, that the administration is ruining. It will be my generation’s task to undo the mistakes of this administration.

 

[estesbob]

Philip P:

Bin Ladin received arms and training from the US when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Did you forget all the weapons and equipment we sold him?

Does someone else’s evil justify our own? I don’t see how Cuba’s human rights abuses are relevant.

If I didn’t love the United States, I wouldn’t care about what’s happening to it. It angers me to see my country’s good name being dragged through the mud by our leaders. This is my future, and my country, that the administration is ruining. It will be my generation’s task to undo the mistakes of this administration.

We didnt arm saddam , we didnt arm and train Bin laden. Of course Cuba’s human rights abuses dont matter to you-only the alleged abuses by the country you allegedly love matter. The only dragging of the good name of the US through the mud i have seen has been by our enemies and those on the Left who’s hatred of Bush blinds them to monumental good we are accomplishing in Iraq.

We will stay the course, Iraq will follow Afghanistan into being a outpost of freedom in a region of fascism. Bush will go down, with Reagan, as a great leader who stayed the course in the face of unrelenting criticism from the Left. When all this happens you will claim it was all just an accident of History and Bush had nothing to do with it. We have seen all this before.

 

[Thekla]

estesbob:

We didnt arm saddam , we didnt arm and train Bin laden. Of course Cuba’s human rights abuses dont matter to you-only the alleged abuses by the country you allegedly love matter. The only dragging of the good name of the US through the mud i have seen has been by our enemies and those on the Left who’s hatred of Bush blinds them to monumental good we are accomplishing in Iraq.

We will stay the course, Iraq will follow Afghanistan into being a outpost of freedom in a region of fascism. Bush will go down, with Reagan, as a great leader who stayed the course in the face of unrelenting criticism from the Left. When all this happens you will claim it was all just an accident of History and Bush had nothing to do with it. We have seen all this before.

I’d have to disagree with all of your predictions but I’m curious as to why you think that people hate Mr. Bush. It’s not that I think you are wrong, I think you are right, but what is the reason for the hatred? It’s an awfully strong word and an awfully strong emotion.

I had an interesting conversation with a woman today who is a psychologist. She said that she has never felt for anyone what she feels for Mr. Bush and she reluctantly used the word “hatred.” You could tell that she was very uncomfortable saying it but she admitted to it.

I could give you a list of why I think that people hate him, but why do you think they hate him?

 

[Thekla]

estesbob:

Can you provide some links where anyone in the Bush admiistration said there were Iraqi’s on the 9-11 planes? It should not be hard for you to do since you have been claiming for months that they repeated it again and again over time.

I never said that anyone in the administration had claimed that there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11. What I have said is that I believe they deliberately left people with that false impression through repeated connections made over time.

 

[estesbob]

Thekla:

I never said that anyone in the administration had claimed that there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11. What I have said is that I believe they deliberately left people with that false impression through repeated connections made over time.

So your post has no basis in fact.

 

[mary_bobo]

walstan:

Now there’s an interesting comparison, the Dems have said that Bush lied so often, the public now believe it. If this is the case, that repeated offerings eventually convince the public that something that is wrong is right, does this explain why the public believe that the Iraqi’s had WMD’s when they didn’t,

You are factually wrong here. Saddam did have weapons of mass destruction and he used them a number of times on Iragis. Surely you are aware of that. If you want to say Bush lied, I would sure like to know what your definition of a lie is. Never mind, obviously you are one of the Bush haters who are not even rational in their arguments. If you could offer some examples and reasonable arguments instead of platitudes, we might be able to converse.

that Iraq was directly responsible for 9/11, when they weren’t. Could it actually be that Bush (et al) has said things so often that the public now believe him? Did he lie, NO, was he guilty of uttering truthless inexactitudes? Almost certainly.

 

[estesbob]

Thekla:

I’d have to disagree with all of your predictions but I’m curious as to why you think that people hate Mr. Bush. It’s not that I think you are wrong, I think you are right, but what is the reason for the hatred? It’s an awfully strong word and an awfully strong emotion.

I had an interesting conversation with a woman today who is a psychologist. She said that she has never felt for anyone what she feels for Mr. Bush and she reluctantly used the word “hatred.” You could tell that she was very uncomfortable saying it but she admitted to it.

I could give you a list of why I think that people hate him, but why do you think they hate him?

Immaturity .

 

[thestickman]

171 posts and still no one has provided any proof Bush lied.

 

[Thekla]

estesbob:

So your post has no basis in fact.

You were incorrect in what you said that I said.

One of the definitions of a “lie” is to “deliberately leave a false impression.” I’ve said that I believe the administration made repeated connections between Iraq and 9/11 that left Americans with a false impression. It got to the point that people actually thought there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11. It was common knowledge that many Americans believed this yet the administration did nothing to dissuade them until October of 2003; 6 months after the invasion.

 

[Thekla]

estesbob:

Immaturity .

Wow. That’s deep thinking.

 

[Philip_P]

estesbob:

We didnt arm saddam , we didnt arm and train Bin laden. Of course Cuba’s human rights abuses dont matter to you-only the alleged abuses by the country you allegedly love matter. The only dragging of the good name of the US through the mud i have seen has been by our enemies and those on the Left who’s hatred of Bush blinds them to monumental good we are accomplishing in Iraq.

This is OT, and I shouldn’t have made the mistake of going there in the first place, but since I did, it’s worth responding to this.

Yes, I suppose I could just say “well conservatives hate Clinton, so there” or something equally childish, or maybe point out the forum rule that says you shouldn’t question a poster’s motives (I mean, country I allegedly love? Come on), but the truth is there shouldn’t have to be a forum rule. Take a step back for a second.

Half the country voted for the other guy. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there are actual reasons why people dislike President Bush? I ask my liberal friends and acquaintences this same question, but in reverse, all the time - did it ever occur to them that perhaps there are actual reasons why people support President Bush?

You could, I suppose, just chalk up those who disagree with you to blind, angry partisanship, but do you really believe that one half of the country is simply composed of self-hating zeolots?

Heated argument is fine, and in these online debates occassional hyperbolic rhetoric is only to be expected, but this questioning of patriotism is ridiculous.

And for the record, I don’t know if Bush lied, and I don’t care a whole lot. I believe he made the wrong decision, and that’s enough for me. Does this mean I hate America? Of course not.

 

[2shelbys]

Philip P:

It angers me to see my country’s good name being dragged through the mud by our leaders.

Oh. So you are actually mad at the Democrats, not Bush. They and their cronies in the press are the only ones dragging the good name of our country through the mud. That is all they have been doing. It has been said quite correctly that the only theater of operations where the terrorists are winning this war in in the American theater of operations where they have the help of powerful Democrats in their fight against America.

 

[2shelbys]

estesbob:

We will stay the course, Iraq will follow Afghanistan into being a outpost of freedom in a region of fascism. Bush will go down, with Reagan, as a great leader who stayed the course in the face of unrelenting criticism from the Left. When all this happens you will claim it was all just an accident of History and Bush had nothing to do with it. We have seen all this before.

An EXCELLENT point.

 

[Vincent_N]

Thekla:

You were incorrect in what you said that I said.

One of the definitions of a “lie” is to “deliberately leave a false impression.” I’ve said that I believe the administration made repeated connections between Iraq and 9/11 that left Americans with a false impression. It got to the point that people actually thought there were Iraqis on the planes on 9/11. It was common knowledge that many Americans believed this yet the administration did nothing to dissuade them until October of 2003; 6 months after the invasion.

The key word is “deliberate”. If you continue to accuse someone of lying while being aware that you have no proof of their intentions, yet promoting your opinions as truths, you would be deliberately leaving the false impression that they have lied. The liar then becomes yourself. Of course you need to do it a few times before the label starts to stick…

 

[grotto]

No, you’ve got that wrong me thinks; it was Clinton that lied many times. Remember? Just go back to the litany of crookedness he and his cohorts engaged in - think $$$$!
'Member Mark Rich and his ex-wife that Ol Bubba found so attractive and hand carried all that moola from Markie Baby? He was so busy collecting “contributions” that he couldn’t find time to take care of business like OBL. But, maybe he collected another “contribution” to pass him up?

Of course, some of you will respond that all that has nothing to do with what is going on now -

 

[estesbob]

Thekla:

Wow. That’s deep thinking.

The Democrat party is like the little kid who takes his ball and goes home becuase he gets stuck playing right field.

To be blunt they cant win elections and they cant win elections becuase they have let the radical left of their party take over. Defending abortion, for instance, is more important to their party than defending our Country.

Since 1980 they have seen a steady downturn in their support. No Democrat has won the Presdiency with majority support since 1976-almost 30 years ago. They have lost control of the majortiy of State houses, state legislatures and Both houses of the congress.

Now heres where the immaturity comes in-rather than admit that perhaps the people are rejecting their message they embrace vast conspiracy theories to explain their losses. What should be serious policy debates become “the chimp lied us into war”.

So , aided and abetted by the MM(who actually tried to defeat Bush in 2004 using forged documents) they have launched a 5 year long campaign to smear Bush.

The result? Bush was re-elected recieving more votes that any Presdident in US history-breaking a recod that had existed for 24 years. The Republcians solidified their majorities in both houses, in the States and the Judiciary is becoming more conservative every day.

The Bush haters chortle at Bushs low approval ratings-as if a LEADER cares what the opinion of the moment is. While snickering at his rating they fail to notice that the group with the lowest approval rating of all politcal groups is the Democrat party.