Did CAF help to bring any atheists into the Church?

[goout]

Freddy:

It’s been suggested on times that there’s an underlying need to believe in my case. That I just won’t admit it. Even to myself.

And of course the non-believers who aren’t here are closed-minded and not even willing to listen to the other side

Non-believers who aren’t here, aren’t here. They are not interested in engaging with talk about God. At least not here anyway.

The question has been proposed many many times. Presence speaks volumes about what gives your life meaning.
Many of you are here, year after year, day after day, on a Catholic discussion forum.
That’s a good thing, in my view anyway. Do you think it’s a good and productive thing?

If discussing life in a Catholic context has not been a productive part of your search for meaning in life, you’ve wasted a dump truck full of irreplaceable time. Several dump trucks actually.

I don’t think you’ve wasted time, and I would imagine you all don’t think you’ve wasted time.
If you haven’t wasted time here, what is the produce you’re hauling away?

 

[RobertAdams]

I’d note that if you just want to read stuff from Catholics who have dissenting views with the hierarchy, you could go on a very liberal forum (like the America magazine page) or a very conservative forum (like one of the SSPX/ sedevacantist forums) and read that all day long.

That’s true; but it is much harder to find places where the best representatives of each perspective answer each other’s best points in good will (that didn’t happen here).

 

[o_mlly]

I hope not. Don’t we have too many already?

 

[goout]

Tis_Bearself:

I’d note that if you just want to read stuff from Catholics who have dissenting views with the hierarchy, you could go on a very liberal forum (like the America magazine page) or a very conservative forum (like one of the SSPX/ sedevacantist forums) and read that all day long.

That’s true; but it is much harder to find places where the best representatives of each perspective answer each other’s best points in good will (that didn’t happen here).

This place is a mixture of good will and a lot of argumentation and posturing. I’m guilty of it as probably most other people are, to one degree or another.

But in this mix there have been many solid answers given to non believers here in good faith.

Honest question for you:
Do you have a child, or a friend, who has come to you with a weighty question? And upon giving your solid and sincere opinion, does that inquirer listen well to you and absorb your opinion in good faith? Perhaps disagree, but respects and walks away in respect?

Or does that person come back everyday to dispute your point of view. Day after day, year after year? Does that happen to you? It doesn’t happen to me. Friends generally agree to disagree fairly quickly.

Beyond that it becomes proselytizing against the person providing your answer. And that gets contentious, obviously, because the person asking for an answer isn’t really looking for an answer, they are looking for something else.
So yea, good will didn’t always happen here. And that is a two way street.

 

[Petra202]

Sometimes a Catholic is swayed by secular society and they “do” things that do not follow teachings of the church and afterwards come to understand the evil… having a fling with a married person, believing abortion is ok up to a certain point, cheating on their taxes, ruining their bodies with drugs… and then as they grow they realize the harm they have done to themselves and others and they repent!! They thought they were good! They believed! They just didn’t have the fullness of the faith! Sometimes it comes with age and grace and lots of prayer. It’s really a lifetime of a journey!

 

[Petra202]

I think instead of thinking one thing but giving the “church” answer it’s that they have come to realize that the church answer was right all along! Like I said before it’s a growth thing! Growing in grace… a young adult thrown into secular world does often get some mud splattered but it’s the grace of God opens the eyes to the truth that was already there if the young one knew the right questions to ask!

 

[Elf01]

I think instead of thinking one thing but giving the “church” answer it’s that they have come to realize that the church answer was right all along! Like I said before it’s a growth thing! Growing in grace… a young adult thrown into secular world does often get some mud splattered but it’s the grace of God opens the eyes to the truth that was already there if the young one knew the right questions to ask!

In mine, it’s because I trust the Church, even in the areas where I am not 100% with her yet, I’ll obey and not voice dissent, unless in an effort to get myself to 100%.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I don’t remember any poster saying “I was an atheist, then I came to CAF and became a Catholic”

But there have been posters who say they were atheist at one time in their lives.

And other posters who said CAF helped them strengthen their faith.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So yea, good will didn’t always happen here. And that is a two way street.

Yes. There are non-Catholics and non-believers here who posted mostly in good faith and from a “let’s have a discussion” perspective rather than “let’s prove your faith is wrong” perspective. The latter got old quickly. Also, I’ve noticed some Catholic forums have one subforum for people to ask questions and get the Catholic teaching, and another subforum for debates. Here, it seemed impossible to separate the two. It caused debates/ arguments at the wrong time and wrong place (like when a new Catholic was trying to ask a confession question, and someone would barge in telling him he didn’t need to go to confession and just talk to God) and caused people who don’t like debates and didn’t come here to argue with non-Catholics to have arguments forced upon them. Another case of, like I said, the forum trying to be all things to all men and having people walk away frustrated and annoyed.

 

[goout]

The denial that goes on here always bothered me.
Some non believers have said they find companionship and good discussion here, and that is something to be admired and respected as an honest answer.

But the implicit accusation of unconvincing answers or bad faith on the part of Catholics giving answers here is disingenuous. Almost any thread here has an immediate and solid reply from someone like Ike or Vico. And over the course of a week’s discussion, just about every angle is exhaustively covered.

Who is the bigger fool: one who believes something foolish, or the one who comes to debate the fool non-stop? Who debates moon landing deniers day after day? Obstinately debating that which you deem foolish is…either supremely foolish, or betraying an intense search for that which you are debating.

The one who comes to debate supposed foolishness non stop in fact lends credibility to it.
So, gratitude is in order. Thank you.

 

[goout]

And if you’ve opened the link to my old church then you can see the choir stalls. My mother used to play the organ on times, my father was second tenor in the middle row (bass at the back, choir boys in the front) and I don’t know how you might imagine Freddy as he’s typing this, but imagine a curly headed 12 year old in a cassock and surplice with ruffles, angelically singing ‘Oh come, oh come Emmanuel’ in a sweet soprano voice. Head choirboy doncha know!

How wonderful it is to have memories which form a person. Some challenging, some the stuff of comfort. I have similar warm and hazy memories from my childhood, of a grandparents house with nice religious statues. Aunts and uncles playing euchre and drinking schnapps, laughing raucously, banging fists on the table with the results of each hand of cards, as if the eternal destiny of the participants was at hand.

Along with that, my uncle showing up purposely late with his large brood (larger than anyone else’s, and a PRIEST in the making too!), rubbing his elder son status in my Dad’s nose, and delaying Christmas for all the children. The festive tenor of the gathering ratcheting down a notch into borderline sobriety. And sometimes devolving into menace, posturing, claiming of places in pecking orders.

And me thinking, “this Catholic thing is not for me”, and me compartmentalizing those formative scenes into good and comforting, and oppressive and negative. And me thinking, I don’t need this crap I can get goodness out of life without all the Catholic baggage.

But nevertheless, the past is un-shakeable and has irrevocably helped form us. And in Christ, all things can be made part of the whole, and renewed, and given new life, and things that were oppressive and damaging can be acknowledged and digested, and good! can actually come from them. Because here we are Brad with everything that formed us both good and bad, and we are good in His eyes.

 

[Petra202]

Ten hearts and stars!!!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But the implicit accusation of unconvincing answers or bad faith on the part of Catholics giving answers here is disingenuous.

Many answers will always be “unconvincing” to those who don’t have, or aren’t open to, faith.

Faith is not a logical construct and it is not something you can will yourself to have or not have, since it’s a grace from God.

In the end, that’s where all apologetics and “answers” necessarily stumble. I realize it’s frustrating to those who think we should be able to always blaze a logical path from A to B, but love is never totally logical and neither is faith or religion. That’s just how it is.

 

[RobertAdams]

This place is a mixture of good will and a lot of argumentation and posturing.

Good point, I shouldn’t be so quick to overlook the good

 

[Pattylt]

In the end, that’s where all apologetics and “answers” necessarily stumble. I realize it’s frustrating to those who think we should be able to always blaze a logical path from A to B, but love is never totally logical and neither is faith or religion. That’s just how it is.

I always appreciate it when someone religious “gets it”. Just as I get frustrated when I explain a view that isn’t accept by someone else (religion wise or other) I realize it’s very hard when a non believer just doesn’t believe as you do. Scratching your head and wondering why don’t they believe as I do? Belief isn’t really a choice. It’s a position one takes when they accept the premise and it agrees with them. No one can make themselves believe…they can pretend, they can agree that it’s logical but they can’t make themselves believe something that they don’t.

What I do realize is that someone else believes and deserves respect for those beliefs, especially if they have investigated and challenged that belief. Faith is a hard concept if you don’t have it. Faith really is a a leap and not everyone is able or capable of that leap. This needs to be respected as well, especially one who had belief and lost it entirely. They remember feeling that faith. They know what the loss feels like.

 

[RobertAdams]

But the implicit accusation of unconvincing answers or bad faith on the part of Catholics giving answers here is disingenuous. Almost any thread here has an immediate and solid reply from someone

I think you’re right that there are many excellent replies given right away. It’s usually the third to fourth reply where things go off the rails. Broccoli is good for you, broccoli rolled in medical waste is not, and I tend to be unsympathetic to the argument “I wouldn’t have rolled it in biowaste if you weren’t so unreasonable and I should still get credit for serving broccoli.”

 

[snarflemike]

I’m not an atheist but one result of over two decades of discussing Christianity online has been that I’ve got much better thought out reasons for not being a Christian.

To be fair, this is a universal law, crossing all boundaries.

 

[AlbMagno]

I don’t think the forums were so bad as some people here seem to think. It’s only in the past 2 months that we have all these “democrats vs. republicans” and Covid flamming.

I actually liked CAF more than other forums, because the userbase is big and the moderators aren’t a mafia of advanced users as it happens in other forums.

 

[Kaninchen]

To be fair, this is a universal law, crossing all boundaries.

You certainly have a point, it’s hard work though.

 

[Freddy]

In mine, it’s because I trust the Church, even in the areas where I am not 100% with her yet, I’ll obey and not voice dissent, unless in an effort to get myself to 100%.

I’ve always been bemused by this. Perhaps it’s understandable if you were born into Catholicism but I don’t get why someone would choose a denomination that taught something with which they honestly disagreed.

I don’t think you’ve wasted time, and I would imagine you all don’t think you’ve wasted time.
If you haven’t wasted time here, what is the produce you’re hauling away?

A better understanding of my positions and why I hold them. It’s easy enough to toss out ‘I don’t see a problem with (for example) ssm’. But if you have to argue your position when 90% of those with whom you are discussing it are against it then you better have some good points to make. And naturally, you have to concede some points when they are valid.

How wonderful it is…

Well written.