Did CAF help to bring any atheists into the Church?

[lelinator]

Who is the bigger fool: one who believes something foolish, or the one who comes to debate the fool non-stop? Who debates moon landing deniers day after day? Obstinately debating that which you deem foolish is…either supremely foolish, or betraying an intense search for that which you are debating.

The one who comes to debate supposed foolishness non stop in fact lends credibility to it.
So, gratitude is in order.

I think the main reason that people are drawn to debate forums like this one, is because people instinctually like to argue. They like to assert their dominance. It’s the same thing that most animals do, only in a uniquely human fashion. In a pack of wolves for example the young cubs will instinctually attempt to assert their dominance, first within their peer group, and then as they age, they’ll attempt to assert their dominance within the hierarchy of the pack. But we humans have replaced physical confrontation with a greater degree of intellectual confrontation. We attempt to assert our authority through intellectual dominance rather than physical dominance. We try to persuade people slightly more through reason, and slightly less through force. Which has the effect of making participation in such confrontations appealing to a much broader group of people, because intellectual confrontation ameliorates the consequences that physical confrontations can entail. Add in the internet which cushions one from the consequences almost entirely, and it’s quite understandable that forums like this one are a magnet for intense debate.

But just like in a pack of wolves not every member is as strongly driven toward confrontation as their peers are, and they shy away from it. In the same manner not every human is drawn to debate forums like this one. They find such confrontation unappealing. They prefer much calmer, less intense interaction. Like a nice low-key baking forum perhaps.

And like a pack of wolves a forums members mature over time, preferring reasoned discussions and civility, over confrontations, but not retreating from one if the situation calls for it. We prefer calm, civil discussions, but we’ll defend the clique, whatever we define that as, if it’s integrity is challenged. Some of us more fervently than others.

So I think that we CAF’ers are simply doing what evolution has influenced us to do. I also think that we’re clearly new to this whole social media thing. And I think that CAF should stick around, no matter the cost, because even though I may not agree with it, I’ve been on debate forums such as this one, for coming up on forty years now, and CAF has been arguably the best that I’ve ever come across.

 

[mathematoons]

I’m glad you’ve been honest about that. I left (came back when I heard it was closing) for that exact reason. This forum doesn’t exactly endear Catholics to the Church either. I converted from atheism before I ever knew about this forum, and I thank God for that; bad believers delayed my conversion for many years as it was. They’re still quite discouraging. Where are those who truly wish to live as “strangers and pilgrims on earth” (as the Bible says)?

It sounds as though the God you don’t believe in is one I don’t believe in either. The one I believe in wants to join His very being with me, and invites me to give up my sinful ways, with His help, to make it happen. The more I say yes, the better my life goes. He has already given me all kinds of earthly blessings (let alone heavenly ones) and has promised more (not comfortable going into details). I pray that you will consider becoming a Catholic. It has improved my life beyond measure.

 

[mathematoons]

I agree. “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rise again from the dead.”

 

[mathematoons]

My spiritual director says the same thing. He got me into the classics because, as he said, “In order to be supernatural, we must be very human.”

 

[Elf01]

I’ve always been bemused by this. Perhaps it’s understandable if you were born into Catholicism but I don’t get why someone would choose a denomination that taught something with which they honestly disagreed.

In my case I am a cradle Catholic, but I think it boils down to to questions

Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God and
Do you believe he established the Catholic Church

Someone who answers yes to those questions should be able to trust the Church and luve by her teachings, even if they are not quite there yet.

 

[Bernoulli]

Do you believe he established the Catholic Church

Answering this question is actually intertwined with what the Catholic Church teaches and if people can accept it as true.

 

[Elf01]

Answering this question is actually intertwined with what the Catholic Church teaches and if people can accept it as true.

Maybe. I think if Jesus did establish a Church, then it narrows down the options to Catholicism or Orthodoxy (there may be other apostolic churches I am unaware of, but the Church has to have existed from the time of Jesus, and that rules out Protestant denominations)

 

[mathematoons]

True, but it’s a very self-centered way of choosing one’s beliefs. “I don’t want to give up/start doing X, and I would have to if I became Catholic; therefore, Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church, and I’m off the hook.”

 

[Juvenal]

Personally, when I started posting religious boards nearly two decades ago, just after 9/11, I was hoping to see what typical adherents believed.

Stop laughing.

Please.

I’ve seen quite a few atheists convert on Christian boards, so I’d be surprised if there were no atheist conversions on CAF. I’ve also seen plenty of Christians, and especially aspiring Christians proselytizers “revert” on Muslim boards. And experience tells me it’s a better than even bet that the most abrasive atheist you’ve ever encountered online was once a member of the Church of Christ.

Looking on, it seems to me that they converted, or deconverted, or reverted, or whatever because they found they liked or disliked the adherents they met, for the most part, more than the adherents or non-adherents they left behind.

Or because their faith was too brittle, because they’d been told rejecting evolution, for example, was a requirement of their faith.

 

[Freddy]

We should note that not being an atheist doesn’t mean one has to adhere to the teachings of a specific denomination. Or even a religion. You don’t even have to believe that Christ is the son of God.

Believing in God dosen’t automatically make you a Christian.

 

[FiveLinden]

Why thank you! On the whole people have been pretty respectful to us too. It’s been fun.

 

[Dan123]

I certainly found a number of atheists who had no response to arguments given against them.
This was almost always clouded over by diversions and utter confusion by the other Catholics and atheists here, who didn’t really want to learn about anything but just needed a place to vent opinions and be listened to.

It’s funny for this to be the place to find common ground, as if you reverse what you said it would reflect fairly well a decent amount of my experience here as a non believer.

 

[Dan123]

Well, I don’t think you can reverse “utter confusion by the other Catholics and atheists here”.

Well referring to the general idea of either asking a question, not even always about Catholicism but often the poster’s personal thoughts, or pointing out a shortcoming in someone’s argument; and then having it ignored or diverted off topic.

 

[MNathaniel]

I don’t think the forums were so bad as some people here seem to think. It’s only in the past 2 months that we have all these “democrats vs. republicans” and Covid flamming.

Just my $0.02, I think the forums were indeed that bad. And not primarily because of the (agreed: awful) political stuff. It’s the religiously contentious and amateur advice-giving stuff.

As I just mentioned on another thread, I was a convert to Catholicism when I started using CAF. Now, and for a chain of reasons that I can’t blame entirely on CAF (but that chain started with CAF, and I honestly don’t know if these circumstances would have unfolded this way if not for CAF)… I don’t know what I am. And it’s painful.

 

[mathematoons]

Do you mean to say you’re leaving the Church over CAF? I sincerely hope not. A priest told me that the Church is not individual priests; similarly, the Church is not CAF.

 

[MNathaniel]

Do you mean to say you’re leaving the Church over CAF? I sincerely hope not. A priest told me that the Church is not individual priests; similarly, the Church is not CAF.

I agree with you, and no, I’m not leaving the Church “over CAF”. As I’ve told other posters for weeks and months (including after my own issue emerged), CAF doesn’t ‘speak for’ the Church. It’s an anonymous Internet forum of private opinions of random strangers, and what happens on CAF can’t be held against ‘the Church’.

But a thread on CAF made me aware of a real life problem in the Church I might not otherwise have been aware of, and one that affected my real life in the real world; and advice on CAF about who (in the real life Church) to speak to about this, led me down a pretty terrible road. And it’s the things that have happened in real life that have shaken me into no longer knowing my relationship with the Church.

Again, not CAF’s fault for exposing me to a reality that happened to introduce a problem into my life. And not the fault of posters who encouraged me to speak to an official in real life who probably seemed to them like the best official, by office, to approach. But I look back and see the role CAF played in my own situation, and realize if not for CAF, my whole situation might have unfolded differently. If I had been only talking to the real people in my own community from the beginning, and hadn’t been also exposing myself to the (name removed by moderator)ut (however well-meaning) of a toxic online forum.

God only knows, of course. And I still hope that he’s got a plan to work this out. I place myself in his hands.

It just is how it is. I’m only mentioning because it seems on-topic. On these threads asking for stories about whether CAF brought people into the Church. Seems relevant to mention that CAF moved me in the opposite direction, to the extent that it moved me. The role it played was not a positive one. Unless one day God shows how he used this time of suffering for his greater glory, which I hope for – but it still doesn’t turn the suffering or its causes into good things.

 

[Freddy]

I certainly found a number of atheists who had no response to arguments given against them.
This was almost always clouded over by diversions and utter confusion by the other Catholics and atheists here, who didn’t really want to learn about anything but just needed a place to vent opinions and be listened to.
It remains the same today. The forums have been a place for egoism and showmanship, winning and losing - and with very little control or direction.
Bad, malformed, ignorant Catholics are thrown into the discussion-heap, allowed to give vent to their doubts and illusions, and the non-believers pick all of that up as evidence against Catholicism.
The deep, irrefutable proofs of God and the Catholic Faith go unanswered, unencountered, unexplored and ignored.

Such a shame you didn’t stick around so we could have all benefited from your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[mathematoons]

Do you have a spiritual director? Mine has done wonders in my life. If not, have you tried finding a good priest you can talk to about the issue? If that hasn’t worked either, all I can suggest is to keep praying about the issue.

 

[Pattylt]

@MNathaniel, I gather your problem (to put it lightly) still hasn’t been resolved? I’m so sorry. If it’s any help, I agree with your frustration and distress. May you soon have revolution and victory!

 

[lelinator]

CAF was a good experiment in “open” dialogue. But it doesn’t work and it ends up damaging the Catholic Faith. I’m grateful the directors at Catholic Answers finally discovered that truth and are shutting this down

I think that you’re being a bit nearsighted. While I have no way of knowing whether CAF did more harm than good, I’m pretty darn sure that the cure will probably be worse than the disease. All those “bad, malformed, and ignorant Catholics” whom you seem to dismiss aren’t just going to magically disappear. They’re going to be going somewhere else. Somewhere where a knowledgeable Catholic voice probably won’t be there to correct them.

So the question is, do want them here on CAF where there’s at least some hope of correcting their misunderstandings, or do you want them somewhere else, where their misunderstandings about Catholicism will be free to go unchallenged?

Of course if they’re not here then you’ll probably never be the wiser, so you can comfort yourself with the fact that you’ve saved CAF from all of those darn ignorant Catholics. Of course that won’t be of much benefit to them, or the people that they encounter, but hey, why should you care about them?