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Rau
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You make an error in assuming that a view expressed by a saint must be in accord with the view of the Church at that time.
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Freddy
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That would be accurate if you’d said ‘the Catholic church’ as opposed to ‘Catholics’. Notwithsatnding any true Scotsman fallacy, a cosiderable number of Catholics have no problem with it.
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CoffeeFanatic
Guest
While I don’t know the answer here, being neither a Catholic nor an expert on the historical accuracy of this, I do know that abortion has been and is ever a topic of debate on numerous fronts. Medically speaking, miscarriages are called abortions too.
This certainly highlights that women died at much higher rates during childbirth (even into the early 20th century) than they do now. St. Antonius (if that’s a real quote) was not wrong that such things were not rare. It happened so often, that I would not be at all surprised that debates raged as to when and if women should be spared from death if they seemed to be headed that way while pregnant. Saints have been wrong about things before and yet still can be considered saints. That, I do know.
This certainly highlights that women died at much higher rates during childbirth (even into the early 20th century) than they do now. St. Antonius (if that’s a real quote) was not wrong that such things were not rare. It happened so often, that I would not be at all surprised that debates raged as to when and if women should be spared from death if they seemed to be headed that way while pregnant. Saints have been wrong about things before and yet still can be considered saints. That, I do know.
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stpurl
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But people seldom will make that distinction.
I guarantee that if somebody told the OP, ‘Yes, friend, there were and always have been and will be people who ignore the Church’s teachings on abortion and condone it, often bleating that they are ‘Catholics in good standing’ and outright stating or implying that the “whole Church” supports them . . .just as is the case with any other Catholic teaching, there are those who defy the teaching as well as those who support it. . .”
You will get as a response, “SEE, you Catholics are hypocrites. Catholics have condoned abortion in the past, you ADMIT it, so just because you don’t NOW, you prove that your teachings change, so your whole premise of ‘truth’ is just as relative as anything else in the world, and you’re worse because instead of acknowledging things change, you try to pretend that it didn’t change’. . .
People will use words and arguments to make them say whatever they want. Try to clarify as we just did, and you’ll have ‘la la la not listening you admitted Catholics condoned abortion in the past don’t try to qualify it liars’.
I guarantee that if somebody told the OP, ‘Yes, friend, there were and always have been and will be people who ignore the Church’s teachings on abortion and condone it, often bleating that they are ‘Catholics in good standing’ and outright stating or implying that the “whole Church” supports them . . .just as is the case with any other Catholic teaching, there are those who defy the teaching as well as those who support it. . .”
You will get as a response, “SEE, you Catholics are hypocrites. Catholics have condoned abortion in the past, you ADMIT it, so just because you don’t NOW, you prove that your teachings change, so your whole premise of ‘truth’ is just as relative as anything else in the world, and you’re worse because instead of acknowledging things change, you try to pretend that it didn’t change’. . .
People will use words and arguments to make them say whatever they want. Try to clarify as we just did, and you’ll have ‘la la la not listening you admitted Catholics condoned abortion in the past don’t try to qualify it liars’.
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Diaconia
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No, the Catholic Church has never taught abortion was justified. Spoiler alert - and she never will!
Individual Catholic persons say and do things [regularly] that are in contradiction with the teaching of the one Church that Jesus Christ started. But they do not speak for His Church.
Let all the little children come unto Me,
Deacon Christopher
Individual Catholic persons say and do things [regularly] that are in contradiction with the teaching of the one Church that Jesus Christ started. But they do not speak for His Church.
Abortion is the murder of a completely innocent and precious son or daughter of the Most High God. Don’t fall for arguments or actions that interfere with the LORD, the Giver of Life.
Let all the little children come unto Me,
Deacon Christopher
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ReaderT
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No.
One of the very first Church documents, the Didache (“The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles”), written before 100AD and likely written by the Apostles or their followers, mentions abortion as a sin:
"thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”; " (Chapter 2 verse 2)
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Usagi
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Abortion has always been regarded as a sin, but some eras’ incomplete knowledge of prenatal development led them to believe there was a period of gestation when the offspring was not yet alive, which would change the kind of sin it was and might, indeed, make it a lesser evil than permitting the mother to die (which, of course, in all but a few cases also means the child is still not gonna get to be born).
Since we now know that even a zygote is alive and human (and genetically distinct from its parents), we’re looking at a case of deliberately ending an innocent human life, which is generally not permitted even to save another.
Since we now know that even a zygote is alive and human (and genetically distinct from its parents), we’re looking at a case of deliberately ending an innocent human life, which is generally not permitted even to save another.
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FiveLinden
Guest
I do not support the Church’s position on abortion. But from all I have read it has always been opposed by the Church right from the earliest times. Except, that is, for cases such as ectopic pregnancy where even late abortion is approved if it is necessary to protect the mother from grave consequences arising from the foetus being ‘in the wrong place’. In these circumstances abortion is approved as an ‘undesired, secondary, consequence’ of the action of removing the fallopian tube.
If. like me, you don’t accept the idea of natural law, this seems to be morally like any other abortion done for serious reasons. But if you do (like Catholics) it is not a ‘direct’ abortion so in a different category.
If. like me, you don’t accept the idea of natural law, this seems to be morally like any other abortion done for serious reasons. But if you do (like Catholics) it is not a ‘direct’ abortion so in a different category.
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Anesti33
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Chemical abortion is still, to this modern day, a horrific, painful, disgusting tribulation for the mother. Abby Johnson wrote all about it; not for the faint of heart.
@Diaconia, thank you for not neutering Mother Church!
@Diaconia, thank you for not neutering Mother Church!
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Rau
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Moral theology is not a trivial subject. Every act that causes an innocent to die is not of the same moral nature. That’s the case in the distinction between direct and indirect abortion. One is always morally wrong, and the other is subject to further assessment to determine its morality - so says the moral theology of the church, which I appreciate you may not accept.
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Rau
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By and large, in democracies, laws reflect the beliefs or the judgements of the majority of the people - or at least they tend to that position. Every individual forms their views based a variety of considerations including the moral principles they find compelling.
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o_mlly
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A bald assertion. Got any facts?
Anyone who procures or assists in a direct abortion is excommunicated.
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FiveLinden
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Religions, including the Catholic Church, have rarely seen democracy as one of their goals. Since World War ll the Catholic Church has shifted its social teaching in this regard but not, as far as I am aware, to the extent of repudiating past support for feudal, monarchial and dictatorial systems as legitimate forms of government. The willingness of people to have their religious beliefs determine the rights of others is always a concern to the non-religious. An example would be restrictions on contraceptive availability in countries influenced by Catholics who uphold Church teaching. (There are few examples of this now).
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Freddy
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I’m sure I don’t have to convince anyone that a significant proportion of Catholics have no problem with abortion. The question then arises: Is there anyone at all that conforms with the teaching of the Catholic church.Freddy:
A bald assertion. Got any facts?
The answer is: No. Obviously.
It’s a tough gig.
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FiveLinden
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Most statistics I have seen suggest that Catholic women have abortions at about the same rate as other women. The argument that these women are not, therefore, Catholic does not make a lot of sense because they describe themselves in that way and, no doubt, are baptised. It is obvious that they are in breach of Church teaching but as you no doubt know many Catholics also feel that is ok to do while remaining Catholic.
Ultimately this is an argument over what ‘Catholic’ means and we all know the actual facts - the Church continues to attract people to some of its teachings and events without necessarily persuading them of them all, including the teaching that they must accept them all.
To an outside observer like me, Catholics are what Catholics do. Many do support legalised abortion and many will support individual abortions. Some are open about this and some are not.
Again from the outside the rejection by many in the Church of open participation by Catholics who accept abortion seems to me to be counter-productive, losing the opportunity to convince Catholics who are in favour of legalised abortion to change their minds. (And yes I know such Catholics can attend Mass - what I mean is that if they express their views it will become th email thing in their relationship with the Church and they will leave).
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FiveLinden
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Elf01
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That would be a good thing.
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o_mlly
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And you would still be wrong.
Wrong again. Foisting your false opinions as facts merely betrays your animosity toward Catholicism.
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o_mlly
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The question PEW asked was not, “Do you condone abortion?” But rather, do you think that abortions should be outlawed by the state. Those are two different questions.
Catholics cay condemn direct abortions and prudentially hold that making such act illegal is impractical.
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