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Freddy
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Aren’t you aware of the proportion of Catholic women who have abortions?Freddy:
And you would still be wrong.
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Elf01
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It should be the goal.
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o_mlly
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Are you? Got facts?
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stpurl
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If you’re trying to say that every Catholic sins in that we aren’t perfect, fine.
But if you’re saying that NOBODY obeys the teachings of the Church, then let me introduce myself to you.
I follow and conform to every teaching of the Catholic Church. When I fail to do so, as in I feel anger, or whatever, I go to confession, confess, am absolved, and try to amend my ways.
Yes it’s a tough gig but Our Founder assured us that in taking up His Cross we would find His yoke easy and His burden light.
And truly this is so.
But if you’re saying that NOBODY obeys the teachings of the Church, then let me introduce myself to you.
I follow and conform to every teaching of the Catholic Church. When I fail to do so, as in I feel anger, or whatever, I go to confession, confess, am absolved, and try to amend my ways.
Yes it’s a tough gig but Our Founder assured us that in taking up His Cross we would find His yoke easy and His burden light.
And truly this is so.
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stpurl
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Over the past few decades it is true, more Catholic women have had abortions. More Lutheran women, more Jewish women, etc. etc.
There is a group called Rachel’s Vineyard which helps women deal with the trauma and regret that a very sizeable number feel AFTER their abortion.
I mean, we all hear, Freddy, about how abortion is such a moral choice, trying to keep the child from suffering, etc. etc.
Is it so surprising that a generation of poorly-catechised women who have been indoctrinated since their own birth with the secularist positions of how abortion is a ‘choice’ and a medical ‘necessity’ and a mark of autonomy, and whose priests and teachers in those years have been themselves so blinded and cowed in order to dip into the secular coffers, that they neither refute nor teach truth but whinge that ‘it’s her choice’, that the rates of abortion go up?
And yet, so many woman afterward REGRET. That means, in case it isn’t clear to you, that they DO have a problem with abortion, especially AFTERWARD.
There is a group called Rachel’s Vineyard which helps women deal with the trauma and regret that a very sizeable number feel AFTER their abortion.
I mean, we all hear, Freddy, about how abortion is such a moral choice, trying to keep the child from suffering, etc. etc.
Is it so surprising that a generation of poorly-catechised women who have been indoctrinated since their own birth with the secularist positions of how abortion is a ‘choice’ and a medical ‘necessity’ and a mark of autonomy, and whose priests and teachers in those years have been themselves so blinded and cowed in order to dip into the secular coffers, that they neither refute nor teach truth but whinge that ‘it’s her choice’, that the rates of abortion go up?
And yet, so many woman afterward REGRET. That means, in case it isn’t clear to you, that they DO have a problem with abortion, especially AFTERWARD.
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FiveLinden
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think this is the Catholic position. I think Catholic teaching requires opposition to the legalisation of abortion, practical or not.
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Rau
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This is in the nature of democracies, not in the nature of “religion”. People submit to the will of the majority, from wherever that will arises.
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Rau
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You appear keen to condemn “religion”? A person may think authorizing parents to kill their offspring is not a good thing. If the majority share that view, they could seek to make that law or they could refrain from “imposing on others”.
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adamhovey1988
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The Didache is the earliest document outside of the New Testament for Christians and explicitly condemns abortion. Also, NYTimes gets A LOT wrong.
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Rau
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I don’t know what you mean by “catholic position”. The Catholic tenet of faith is that direct abortion is always morally wrong. The Catholic Church (prudentially) instructs that legalization should be opposed. A Catholic (on proper grounds) may certainly form a view that a law outlawing abortion is a bad idea and should not be passed.
Another analogy is capital punishment. The Church asserts (using different words) that CP is unthinkable in the modern world (a prudential judgement). But we know (Tenet of Faith) CP can be a moral act, and to condone it in appropriate circumstances is a prudential judgement.
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FiveLinden
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I mean what the catechism says:
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
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Rau
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Ok thanks.
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FiveLinden
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No I do not condemn religion. I observe it. Islamic and Catholic majority countries have historically sought to impose all sorts of restrictions on others including such minor things as the type of work that can be done on holy days. Israel has marriage laws partly determined by religious authorities. Most such countries restrict freedom of speech on grounds of ‘blasphemy’. If you are keen to defend religion you should be arguing that all these actions are good, not creating imagined extreme situations.
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Rau
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You should not mistake my correcting your earlier error in erroneously attributing the operation of democracy to the nature of religion as suggesting a predisposition to “defend religion”. You make another error in imaging I’d think all religious inspired beliefs are good.
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Freddy
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Follow the link in this article to the survey details: Catholics are just as likely to get an abortion as other U.S. women. Why? | America MagazineFreddy:
Are you? Got facts?
‘Many abortion patients reported a religious affiliation - 24% were Catholic…’
And just about a half of all Catholics think it should be legal in all/most cases: Views about abortion among Catholics - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center
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Freddy
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You may be an example to which we should all aspire, spurl. But the point I made that a lot of Catholics don’t have a problem with abortion and that a significant proportion of those that have abortions are themselves Catholics was challenged. I just provided the evidence.
And quite possibly some women later regret having an abortion. I would imagine a lot would regret it prior to having it as well but still proceed, perhaps thinking it to be the least worst option available to them.
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Freddy
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The rates are actually going down, thankfully. And most people, even those who are pro choice, have a problem with the numbers of abortions. There’s no argument there.
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Mrchatsworth
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You need not go back that far. There are Catholics, some very prevalent who condone abortion right this very minute.
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stpurl
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The whole point though, is that while all of us Christians sin, by denying or rejecting a teaching, even some teachings, for anything from one event to a lifetime of denial, doesn’t mean that “The Church” does so.
Also, and I fear this has not been recognized, is that the Church is not a democracy. The fact that “X percent’ of Catholics in a given day, week, month, year, decade, whatever engage in a given sin does not again have anything to do with the teaching itself.
To put it succinctly: What is true remains true, even if nobody believes it.
What is false remains false, even if everybody believes it.
The number of Catholics who engage in or support abortion means nothing in the sense that it does not ‘negate the teaching’ or somehow lessen the teaching. It of course means everything to the individual who sins, and who we hope will repent and confess.
But Saying X number of Catholics does something sinful is like saying the sky is blue, or 2 and 2 equal 4; it’s a fact of life that if there is free will for a person to choose good or evil, there are going to be times when a person is liable to choose evil, as well as times they are liable to choose good, and they are especially liable to choose evil when they have not been well taught, or when the ‘secular’ teachings are evil and the pressures are high.
Also, and I fear this has not been recognized, is that the Church is not a democracy. The fact that “X percent’ of Catholics in a given day, week, month, year, decade, whatever engage in a given sin does not again have anything to do with the teaching itself.
To put it succinctly: What is true remains true, even if nobody believes it.
What is false remains false, even if everybody believes it.
The number of Catholics who engage in or support abortion means nothing in the sense that it does not ‘negate the teaching’ or somehow lessen the teaching. It of course means everything to the individual who sins, and who we hope will repent and confess.
But Saying X number of Catholics does something sinful is like saying the sky is blue, or 2 and 2 equal 4; it’s a fact of life that if there is free will for a person to choose good or evil, there are going to be times when a person is liable to choose evil, as well as times they are liable to choose good, and they are especially liable to choose evil when they have not been well taught, or when the ‘secular’ teachings are evil and the pressures are high.
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