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FiveLinden
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Has anyone in this thread made this claim? That is, that rejection of Church teaching by members of the Church means that “The Church” does so?
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Pattylt
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I haven’t finished reading all the posts here but I can’t believe you are denying the statistics.Freddy:
And you would still be wrong.
In questioning those that identify as Catholic, it’s almost 50/50 between those that think abortion should be legal in all/most cases and those that don’t.
Further, Catholics make up about 25% of the US population and 24% of women aborting identify as Catholic. Besides trying to convince all non Catholics of being anti abortion, you’ll need to convince half of your own Catholics as well.
Perhaps some of these people that identify as Catholic really don’t realize the position of the church but I think most of them do. They just don’t agree with Her.
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Freddy
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Nobody said the church does. It was simply pointed out that many Catholics have an opinion regarding abortion that does not align with the church. And yes, it’s akin to pointing out that the sky is blue. But if someone actually wants evidence that it’s blue then I’ll do my best to provide it .
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MoonlitYT
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Is it conclusive to say that it was only a mere opinion of a person rather than an actual teaching of the Church?
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Freddy
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The opinion of those who self identify as Catholics to be specific.
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Minks
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More aptly: the opinion of SOME of those who self identify as Catholics to be specific.MoonlitYT:
The opinion of those who self identify as Catholics to be specific.
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Freddy
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If anyone is taking the time to read the posts then that would be plainly obvious. See the links for the percentages to which we are referringFreddy:
More aptly: the opinion of SOME of those who self identify as Catholics to be specific.MoonlitYT:
The opinion of those who self identify as Catholics to be specific.
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Montrose
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The Church has never condoned abortion.
First we have the 5th Commandment “You shall not kill”.
The we have in the Didache " you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten.
First we have the 5th Commandment “You shall not kill”.
The we have in the Didache " you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten.
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o_mlly
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Similar to the fallacy of transgenderism, many who do not “think” Catholic but “feel” Catholic" self-identify as Catholic in telephone polls. It’s a knee-jerk reply.
As I posted, Catholics who have had or assisted in a direct abortion are excommunicated. The proliferation of direct abortions makes it more likely that one polled today has either had a direct abortion or assisted in one or knows a loved one who has done so. Rather than deny the horrific act for what it is they waffle and scandalously corrupt others. The pollster would do well to modify the question to, “Are you a Catholic in good standing?” That is the standard the Church applies to those who desire to participate in our sacraments.
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Freddy
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You are free to interpret the information as you wish.Freddy:
Similar to the fallacy of transgenderism, many who do not “think” Catholic but “feel” Catholic" self-identify as Catholic in telephone polls.
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o_mlly
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We are opposed to legal and illegal direct abortions. We recognize that the secular forces have removed the sacred protection of life to the unborn. We will act within the law to rescind and reverse that immoral finding. We recognize that once again making direct abortions illegal will not stop direct abortions.
We will always most adamantly oppose the funding of direct abortions with our resources, i.e., federal monies to abortion mills such as Planned Parenthood.
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o_mlly
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Didn’t know I needed permission to post the obvious.
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o_mlly
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The technology of abortifacient drugs makes enforcing illegal abortions impractical. It is imprudent to pass laws that the state is unable to enforce. Rather than change the law, we remain committed to changing people’s hearts.
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FiveLinden
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Your position, though it makes perfect sense to me as an unbeliever, does not seem to agree with the Catechism, as I linked above:
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
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mdgspencer
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.
This is in response to the opening post, which said Saint Antoninus said abortion was permissible to save the life of the mother. If he was speaking of indirect abortion, in which abortion was not intended, it can be morally licit.
This is from the Catholic reference source, “Dictionary of Moral Theology,” pp. 10-11.
“Abortion is called indirect when when the death of the fetus follows as the result of a medical treatment or surgical operation upon a pregnant patient, and there is no relation of cause and effect between pregnancy and the condition operated upon; in other words, the same operation might be performed on a non-pregnant woman if the same therapeutic conditions were present.”
“Indirect abortion is morally licit because the doctor does not directly kill the child to save the mother, as in the case of therapeutic abortion, but simply gives medical or surgical treatment to the mother, even though he foresees the inevitable death of the child. The case, to use an example well-known to moralists, is comparable to that of an individual who, unjustly attacked by a pregnant woman, kills her in self-defense with the consequent death of the innocent fetus. in such a case, the man is not guilty of the death of the innocent fetus because the death was in no way intended, nor was the killing of the woman the direct cause of the death of the fetus.”
This is in response to the opening post, which said Saint Antoninus said abortion was permissible to save the life of the mother. If he was speaking of indirect abortion, in which abortion was not intended, it can be morally licit.
This is from the Catholic reference source, “Dictionary of Moral Theology,” pp. 10-11.
“Abortion is called indirect when when the death of the fetus follows as the result of a medical treatment or surgical operation upon a pregnant patient, and there is no relation of cause and effect between pregnancy and the condition operated upon; in other words, the same operation might be performed on a non-pregnant woman if the same therapeutic conditions were present.”
“Indirect abortion is morally licit because the doctor does not directly kill the child to save the mother, as in the case of therapeutic abortion, but simply gives medical or surgical treatment to the mother, even though he foresees the inevitable death of the child. The case, to use an example well-known to moralists, is comparable to that of an individual who, unjustly attacked by a pregnant woman, kills her in self-defense with the consequent death of the innocent fetus. in such a case, the man is not guilty of the death of the innocent fetus because the death was in no way intended, nor was the killing of the woman the direct cause of the death of the fetus.”
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o_mlly
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The paragraphs cited are from the Catholic Catechism promulgated in 1992.
The FDA began the process of approving abortifacients in Feb. 1997. Following nearly 20 years of legislative and court battles, on Feb. 25, 2014 the FDA granted an allowance for Plan B and similar generic alternatives to be sold over-the-counter, with no prescription or age requirements.
Marketed deceptively as just a contraceptive, Plan B is, in fact, also an abortifacient that prevents an arriving embryo from implanting into the uterine wall.
The FDA began the process of approving abortifacients in Feb. 1997. Following nearly 20 years of legislative and court battles, on Feb. 25, 2014 the FDA granted an allowance for Plan B and similar generic alternatives to be sold over-the-counter, with no prescription or age requirements.
Marketed deceptively as just a contraceptive, Plan B is, in fact, also an abortifacient that prevents an arriving embryo from implanting into the uterine wall.
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FiveLinden
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The .‘morning after pill’ was well known in 1992. And if the Church wants to update the Catechism, it does.
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Montrose
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Plan B is forbidden by the Church.
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o_mlly
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“Well known” by whom?
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o_mlly
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? Nothing that you have cited is in need of updating.
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