Did church fathers Ignatius, polycarp, ignatius speak of trinitarian baptism?

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Please help me with that question. I need quotes from the chruch fathers indicating trinitarian baptism and not oneness baptism!!!
 
A oneness minister says he has proof that clement, ignatius, polycarp said baptize in name of Jesus. Can any one comment on this?
 
joclucsylv said:
A oneness minister says he has proof that clement, ignatius, polycarp said baptize in name of Jesus. Can any one comment on this?
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Why would you listen to him? He’s a heretic. (Not being mean, just clinical.)

First of all, Jesus founded a (one) Church to spread His truths. He gave this Church His authority and His guarantee that it would never teach doctrinal error.

Someone coming along 2000 years later has no authority to correct Christ or His Mystical Body, the Church.

Your friend has no proof. Only his own, personal misinterpretation of what he wants the truth to be.
 
Scoobyshme said:
Why would you listen to him? He’s a heretic. (Not being mean, just clinical.)

First of all, Jesus founded a (one) Church to spread His truths. He gave this Church His authority and His guarantee that it would never teach doctrinal error.

Someone coming along 2000 years later has no authority to correct Christ or His Mystical Body, the Church.

Your friend has no proof. Only his own, personal misinterpretation of what he wants the truth to be.
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Yes…I agree he tells me he can prove that Ig, Clem, and Poly baptized in name of Jesus. I am not listening to him as much as I am defending my faith. It is important to me that I refute him correctly. Thank for any help I may get!!
 
joclucsylv said:
A oneness minister says he has proof that clement, ignatius, polycarp said baptize in name of Jesus. Can any one comment on this?
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That he misunderstands what is meant by baptizing in Jesus. In particular, this naming was to differentiate from John’s baptism or any of the other baptisms going around at the time. This kind of distinction is clearly made in the following passage of Acts:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:1-7[/BIBLEDRB]

As for the formula of baptism, Jesus himself commanded:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:19[/BIBLEDRB]

However, the Oneness minister has a more pressing issue than the formula of Baptism. The main issue concerns the nature of the Holy Trinity (i.e. they deny that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons).
 
SonCatcher said:
That he misunderstands what is meant by baptizing in Jesus. In particular, this naming was to differentiate from John’s baptism or any of the other baptisms going around at the time. This kind of distinction is clearly made in the following passage of Acts:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:1-7[/BIBLEDRB]

As for the formula of baptism, Jesus himself commanded:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:19[/BIBLEDRB]

However, the Oneness minister has a more pressing issue than the formula of Baptism. The main issue concerns the nature of the Holy Trinity (i.e. they deny that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons).
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Oh…he is saying he can prove IG, CLEM, and POLY didn’t believe in trinity. Do they have writings son the trinity???
 
joclucsylv said:
Yes…I agree he tells me he can prove that Ig, Clem, and Poly baptized in name of Jesus. I am not listening to him as much as I am defending my faith. It is important to me that I refute him correctly. Thank for any help I may get!!
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He is mistaken if he thinks that their general writings were prescriptions for how to carry out the sacrament. Do those writings tell in detail acceptable sources of water, how many times water must flow over the head, the kinds of clothes the convert must wear before and after baptism, etc? There was quite a bit of detail going into the full rite even then.
 
joclucsylv said:
A oneness minister says he has proof that clement, ignatius, polycarp said baptize in name of Jesus. Can any one comment on this?
Click to expand...
that’s possible. we are baptized into the death of Jesus Christ, we become children of God the Father through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and we receive the earnest of the Holy Spirit.
 
joclucsylv said:
Oh…he is saying he can prove IG, CLEM, and POLY didn’t believe in trinity. Do they have writings son the trinity???
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It actually took some time for the Church to grasp the doctrine of the Trinity. All 3 of the Fathers cited lived in the first 2 centuries. The Trinity, however, was not sufficiently understood to proclaim as doctrine until the 4th century.

The teachings were all there but it took some time to understand their meaning in sufficient depth. God is infinite. It would literally take all of humanity all of time devoted to the subject to even scratch the surface of His nature. The only reason they could extract such a deep meaning so quickly (300 years) is because they had the Holy Spirit leading them. Until then, they were still discovering who God is (indeed, we still are) so misconceptions and incomplete ones were understandable.

Certainly, Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp assisted in developing the doctrine of the Trinity though they themselves never came to understand it.
 
joclucsylv said:
Please help me with that question. I need quotes from the chruch fathers indicating trinitarian baptism and not oneness baptism!!!
Click to expand...
Undoubtedly this minister is saying that one should be baptized in the name of Jesus only. This is unscriptural as Jesus clearly states one should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. See Mt 28:19. What this minister is doing is taking the term “in the name of Jesus” literally. Really the term means to babtize in Jesus’ authority or by the authority of Jesus. Remember there was also John’s baptism which someone else pointed out . We know that baptism in John’s name was ineffective because there was no authority behind it. But Baptism in Jesus’ name had the authority of God to make it effective. Baptism in the authority of Jesus was Trinitarian Baptism just as Jesus said in MT 28:19. Furthermore, we see this term “in the name of Jesus” used in different situations not related to baptism. In Acts 16:18 we read where Paul used the term to cast out an evil demon “in the name of Jesus Christ” :

“18 And this she did for many days. But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I charge you **in the name of Jesus Christ **to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.”

Again in 1 Corinthians 5:3-4 Paul pronounces judgement “in the name of Jesus”. In
2Th 3:6 Paul commands the Thessalonians in the “name of Jesus”

“6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.”

This term is really no different than what we see today. In the old cops and robbers stories the police were always telling the bad guys to “Stop in the name of the law”. They were citing the law as their authority enabling them to do their duty. That is what Paul was doing in 1 Corinthians and 2 Thessalonians only his authority was not the law but Jesus Christ.
 
SonCatcher said:
It actually took some time for the Church to grasp the doctrine of the Trinity. All 3 of the Fathers cited lived in the first 2 centuries. The Trinity, however, was not sufficiently understood to proclaim as doctrine until the 4th century.

The teachings were all there but it took some time to understand their meaning in sufficient depth. God is infinite. It would literally take all of humanity all of time devoted to the subject to even scratch the surface of His nature. The only reason they could extract such a deep meaning so quickly (300 years) is because they had the Holy Spirit leading them. Until then, they were still discovering who God is (indeed, we still are) so misconceptions and incomplete ones were understandable.

Certainly, Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp assisted in developing the doctrine of the Trinity though they themselves never came to understand it.
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This is what Oneness man is telling me. That trinity is a heresy and that people were baptizing in Jesus name from the beginning. Did Ignatius, Polycarp and Clement write on trinity. If so…can someone point out the source. Thank you!!

So…if trinity ws only understook in fourth centruy, were people baptizing in name of Jesus or in trinity
 
According to the Corunum Website, the Didache used the Trinitarian formula. The Didache was probably written as early as the 60’s AD, but maybe as late as 140AD or so.
“And concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou canst not in cold, in warm. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.”
Didache,7(c.A.D. 140),in ANF,VII:379
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NotWorthy said:
According to the Corunum Website, the Didache used the Trinitarian formula. The Didache was probably written as early as the 60’s AD, but maybe as late as 140AD or so.
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Thank you!! If we can all find more I would appreciate it. Especially quotes from clement, ignatius, and polycarp.
 
Ignatius wrote in his Epistles to the Smyrnaeans something your friend might find disconcerting:
It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
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does your friend have bishops?
 
NotWorthy said:
Ignatius wrote in his Epistles to the Smyrnaeans something your friend might find disconcerting:
does your friend have bishops?
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Ha Ha…funny you ask. He is a self proclaimed bishop in the oneness faith.
 
joclucsylv said:
Thank you!! If we can all find more I would appreciate it. Especially quotes from clement, ignatius, and polycarp.
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I just went through Ignatius and Polycarp. Other than the 1 post I quoted, they don’t instruct on “how to baptize”. That would have already been understood. Notice that they are writing to well-established Churches.

The Didache is a “beginners’ instructional manual” which is why you’ll see the rubrics. St. Justin Martyr is also writing to instruct a pagan (Emperor Trajan) on baptism.

So, I really don’t see why one would expect to find baptismal instructions in their writings.

I’ll check out St. Clement real quick.
 
I did a quick search on Clement’s writing to Corinth and it doesn’t show up there either.

Once again, Clement was writing to a well-established Church, albeit this Church was the often-chaotic Corinthians!!! The intent of his letter was to re-establish Apostolic Authority in Corinth. Those crazy Corinthians didn’t like the Church-appointed priests and bishops and decided to ordain their own leaders. Clements letter addresses this issue quite forcibly.

But nowhere in the who scenario does Baptism need to be addressed, is what it looks like.
 
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