Did God Create Evil

[tonyrey]

But according to Catholic teaching both moral and physical evil entered mans’ reality as a result of the fall-either one causing pain and suffering. Man was created immortal but on the condition that he did not sin. And it could be said that moral evil-or sin-causes more pain and suffering anyway so the question still remains-why would a loving father allow sin to reign freely? My belief is that the conditions existing in this world are, together with revelation, intended to be formative for man rather than strictly punitive. The Catechism states that suffering can best be understood and accepted by us in light of Jesus’ passion and resurrection-His own suffering, death-and triumph over death.

I agree that moral and physical evil entered mans’ reality as a result of the choice of evil but why should the whole of the animal kingdom suffer and die as well? Pain and death are widely regarded as evils but if they are necessary and inevitable they are drawbacks but not really evil at all!

I also agree that the drawbacks of life are intended to be formative rather than punitive but sometimes suffering is so extreme that it is destructive rather than formative. The fact that life is designed by God does not exclude the element of chance in the unfolding of events. Calvin’s view that every drop of rain is directly willed by God would make our Creator directly responsible for every accident, deformity, disease and disaster on this planet! Even the arch-sceptic David Hume recognized that such tragedies are due to the coincidence of physical laws rather than direct volitions of the Deity.

 

[wxboss]

…but why should the whole of the animal kingdom suffer and die as well? Pain and death are widely regarded as evils but if they are necessary and inevitable they are drawbacks but not really evil at all!

I also agree that the drawbacks of life are intended to be formative rather than punitive but sometimes suffering is so extreme that it is destructive rather than formative.

Your questions are poignant and reasonable. They are questions that I would dare say most people consider at some point in their life. The question is why are these issues such a big question? Could it be due to an inherent understanding that things aren’t the way they ought to be?

Creation now suffers because God’s steward over Creation (Adam) made a wrong choice and we see this trend in wrong choices continuing even to this day. The essence of Sin is the awareness of self - realizing that you and I exist apart from God. This is the Great Gap that was created and all Creation echos this very fact - everyone and everything is caring for itself only.

Genesis 2:25:
" And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

They “were not ashamed” not because they were ignorant of their nakedness; instead, they were ignorant of themselves as individuals. Their lives were so completely enmeshed with God that even nakedness couldn’t distract them.

 

[tonyrey]

Creation now suffers because God’s steward over Creation (Adam) made a wrong choice and we see this trend in wrong choices continuing even to this day. The essence of Sin is the awareness of self - realizing that you and I exist apart from God. This is the Great Gap that was created and all Creation echos this very fact - everyone and everything is caring for itself only.

The realization that we can exist independently is not a sin but the result of having free will and being able to choose for ourselves. Sin is entailed in the decision to live for ourselves, rejecting God’s love and His laws. The inevitable result is hell - a state of self-inflicted isolation and misery.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I’m not sure why this thread is over 100 posts long - it seems fairly simple.

God granted us the gift of free will so that we could choose Him or…not Him. Not Him is, ultimately, evil, in that it is the rejection of all that is good.

Thus, God did not directly create evil; He created the circumstances that allow us to choose evil, which is a necessary flip-side of being able to choose to love and obey Him.

OK, we can close this thread and go home now.

Peace,
Dante

 

[dcastlen50]

Creation now suffers because God’s steward over Creation (Adam) made a wrong choice and we see this trend in wrong choices continuing even to this day. The essence of Sin is the awareness of self - realizing that you and I exist apart from God. This is the Great Gap that was created and all Creation echos this very fact - everyone and everything is caring for itself only.

Genesis 2:25:
" And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

They “were not ashamed” not because they were ignorant of their nakedness; instead, they were ignorant of themselves as individuals. Their lives were so completely enmeshed with God that even nakedness couldn’t distract them.

Most intriquing! I would like you to massage this more. I was reading ( a long time ago ) a Bonhoeffer book on ethics or something related to it. And he made the comment in the beginning of the book that we were not made to understand. I find it a bit funny 200 pages later he was still examining to understand. Never the less, I would like to hear morre of your ideas related to the above quote of yours.

 

[dcastlen50]

I’m not sure why this thread is over 100 posts long - it seems fairly simple.

God granted us the gift of free will so that we could choose Him or…not Him. Not Him is, ultimately, evil, in that it is the rejection of all that is good.

Thus, God did not directly create evil; He created the circumstances that allow us to choose evil, which is a necessary flip-side of being able to choose to love and obey Him.

OK, we can close this thread and go home now.

Peace,
Dante

 

[dcastlen50]

dcastlen50:


Not so quick there, those that come to conclusions in haste find much to the rest’s waste. There are more than interesting comments in this post of which I am being well trained and getting closer to God as a result. I find Augustine correct that when we love one we want to know all about him/Him the more.

Or as Juliet says, " My bounty is as boundless as the sea. My love as deep; the more I give of thee the more I have, FOR BOTH ARE INFINITE."

 

[jkiernan56]

Evil cannot and does not exist in a vacuum. It can only exist when it’s predecessor and counterpart of Good first exists. Evil is Goodness misused and corrupted. Goodness can exist First without being or becoming corrupted … in other words to become Evil … or cause Evil … or used in a way that causes harm. Evil cannot and does not exist without its counterpart - the Good that first exists. A disease by nature and by definition is dependant and relative to that which is healthy. Something can be healthy without becoming unhealthy or diseased. But a disease innately means THAT PERFECTION or GOOD which has been corrupted and made unhealthy.

Before creation Evil did not exist. God who is all Goodness and Absolute Perfection of BEING in 3 distinct Persons DID NOT “create evil” … in other words God did not create anything innately diseased or corrupted. He certaintly created the world in such a way that allowed the opportunity for what He had created to become diseased and corrupt. God by giving contingent existence allows the possibility/reality of evil to exist. Giving existence is not the same though as causing what exists to become diseased or corrupted. God definitely permits what He has innately created good and gives existence to - to become diseased and corrupted. But giving existence and permitting what He gives existence to … to become corrupted/diseased … is not the same “causing” it to become corrupt.

Bottom line - God DID NOT “Create” Evil

Sorry - I’m just rambling here a bit … things I like to ruminate about … I have experienced God’s Goodness in my life … it makes me think … maybe too much … lol

 

[dcastlen50]

Evil cannot and does not exist in a vacuum. It can only exist when it’s predecessor and counterpart of Good first exists. Evil is Goodness misused and corrupted. Goodness can exist First without being or becoming corrupted … in other words to become Evil … or cause Evil … or used in a way that causes harm. Evil cannot and does not exist without its counterpart - the Good that first exists. A disease by nature and by definition is dependant and relative to that which is healthy. Something can be healthy without becoming unhealthy or diseased. But a disease innately means THAT PERFECTION or GOOD which has been corrupted and made unhealthy.

Before creation Evil did not exist. God who is all Goodness and Absolute Perfection of BEING in 3 distinct Persons DID NOT “create evil” … in other words God did not create anything innately diseased or corrupted. He certaintly created the world in such a way that allowed the opportunity for what He had created to become diseased and corrupt. God by giving contingent existence allows the possibility/reality of evil to exist. Giving existence is not the same though as causing what exists to become diseased or corrupted. God definitely permits what He has innately created good and gives existence to - to become diseased and corrupted. But giving existence and permitting what He gives existence to … to become corrupted/diseased … is not the same “causing” it to become corrupt.

Bottom line - God DID NOT “Create” Evil

Sorry - I’m just rambling here a bit … things I like to ruminate about … I have experienced God’s Goodness in my life … it makes me think … maybe too much … lol

Very Good:thumbsup:

 

[eggsbenedict]

Who is to say that free will does not apply to angels? Many theolgians believe it was pride that made Lucifer revolt against the kingdom. You cannot love someone without freewill. Otherwise you are a slave of obligation.

Why wasn’t his power taken away from Lucifer when he revolted? Why would he be allowed to tempt innocent souls and why would those souls be punished for it?

 

[Podo2005]

The question is this: did God create evil? In the creed each Sunday, we proclaim that “We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.” If God is the creator of all things seen and unseen and if evil exists and it can both be seen through the actions of people or unseen, does it follow that God created evil?

I apologize in advance Im lazy and havent read the rest of the tread so If Im repeating a point brought up by someone else forgive me

No… because evil is not a thing… its not stuff at all All stuff is good and created by God. Evil is in a sense things gone wrong, wrong choices, things not acting as they should etc It is like a parasite, not something original.
Hope that helps!

In Christ
Zachary

 

[dcastlen50]

I apologize in advance Im lazy and havent read the rest of the tread so If Im repeating a point brought up by someone else forgive me

No… because evil is not a thing… its not stuff at all All stuff is good and created by God. Evil is in a sense things gone wrong, wrong choices, things not acting as they should etc It is like a parasite, not something original.
Hope that helps!

In Christ
Zachary

Excellent! short, clear, to the point.

 

[SSTeacher]

Podo2005;5491866:

I apologize in advance Im lazy and havent read the rest of the tread so If Im repeating a point brought up by someone else forgive me

No… because evil is not a thing… its not stuff at all All stuff is good and created by God. Evil is in a sense things gone wrong, wrong choices, things not acting as they should etc It is like a parasite, not something original.
Hope that helps!

In Christ
Zachary

Excellent! short, clear, to the point.

If God created everything then in doing so He generated the possibility of both moral evil and physical evil. If God is omniscient and the presence of evil in creation can realistically be likened to the appearance of rust on metal the inescapable conclusion within these presuppositions is that God created the fact of evil fully knowing that it would inevitably lead to the human act of evil.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[dcastlen50]

If God created everything then in doing so He generated the possibility of both moral evil and physical evil. If God is omniscient and the presence of evil in creation can realistically be likened to the appearance of rust on metal the inescapable conclusion within these presuppositions is that God created the fact of evil fully knowing that it would inevitably lead to the human act of evil.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[jkiernan56]

If God created everything then in doing so He generated the possibility of both moral evil and physical evil. If God is omniscient and the presence of evil in creation can realistically be likened to the appearance of rust on metal the inescapable conclusion within these presuppositions is that God created the fact of evil fully knowing that it would inevitably lead to the human act of evil.

Cordially,
Mick

A person who thinks and reasons clearly would understand that creating the “possibility of evil” IS NOT the same as doing or creating evil. They are not the same thing. Yes God created the possibility of evil and it is true God fully knew that it would inevitably lead to the angelic and human act of evil. Evil is the corruption of something that is Good. Evil cannot exist without something Good existing first. But Goodness can certainly exist without becoming corrupted. In other words - evil DOES NOT have to exist and was not caused by God. He allows the possibility of evil by giving Goodness existence and allowing the possibility of it being corrupted.

God chose to create what is Good. In doing so, God knew that it would become corrupted. It was NOT God’s doing that what He created Good to become corrupted. So I take exception that you are inferring that God created evil by creating good. I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5493071:

If God created everything

then in doing so He generated the possibility of both moral evil and physical evil. If God is omniscient and the presence of evil in creation can realistically be likened to the appearance of rust on metal the inescapable conclusion within these presuppositions is that God created the fact of evil fully knowing that it would inevitably lead to the human act of evil.

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:A person who thinks and reasons clearly would understand that creating the “possibility of evil” IS NOT the same as doing or creating evil. They are not the same thing. Yes God created the possibility of evil and it is true God fully knew that it would inevitably lead to the angelic and human act of evil. Evil is the corruption of something that is Good. Evil cannot exist without something Good existing first. But Goodness can certainly exist without becoming corrupted. In other words - evil DOES NOT have to exist and was not caused by God. He allows the possibility of evil by giving Goodness existence and allowing the possibility of it being corrupted.

God chose to create what is Good. In doing so, God knew that it would become corrupted. It was NOT God’s doing that what He created Good to become corrupted. So I take exception that you are inferring that God created evil by creating good. I wholeheartedly disagree.

I made my post in order to focus attention upon the main difficulty. I made no implication therein but you are, of course, free to infer whatever you want.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[Prodigal_Son]

A person who thinks and reasons clearly would understand that creating the “possibility of evil” IS NOT the same as doing or creating evil. They are not the same thing. Yes God created the possibility of evil and it is true God fully knew that it would inevitably lead to the angelic and human act of evil. Evil is the corruption of something that is Good. Evil cannot exist without something Good existing first. But Goodness can certainly exist without becoming corrupted. In other words - evil DOES NOT have to exist and was not caused by God. He allows the possibility of evil by giving Goodness existence and allowing the possibility of it being corrupted.

God chose to create what is Good. In doing so, God knew that it would become corrupted. It was NOT God’s doing that what He created Good to become corrupted. So I take exception that you are inferring that God created evil by creating good. I wholeheartedly disagree.

To modify this slightly…

If my son Bobby stole your truck, something that I did caused your truck to be stolen, but I did not steal your truck. God is the indirect cause of evil, but He is not responsible for evil.

 

[SSTeacher]

jkiernan56;5493183:

A person who thinks and reasons clearly would understand that creating the “possibility of evil” IS NOT the same as doing or creating evil. They are not the same thing. Yes God created the possibility of evil and it is true God fully knew that it would inevitably lead to the angelic and human act of evil. Evil is the corruption of something that is Good. Evil cannot exist without something Good existing first. But Goodness can certainly exist without becoming corrupted. In other words - evil DOES NOT have to exist and was not caused by God. He allows the possibility of evil by giving Goodness existence and allowing the possibility of it being corrupted.

God chose to create what is Good. In doing so, God knew that it would become corrupted. It was NOT God’s doing that what He created Good to become corrupted. So I take exception that you are inferring that God created evil by creating good. I wholeheartedly disagree.

To modify this slightly…

If my son Bobby stole your truck, something that I did caused your truck to be stolen, but I did not steal your truck. God is the indirect cause of evil, but He is not responsible for evil.

Yes, you understand the point. Thanks for the helpful interpolation.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[dcastlen50]

To modify this slightly…

If my son Bobby stole your truck, something that I did caused your truck to be stolen, but I did not steal your truck. God is the indirect cause of evil, but He is not responsible for evil.

Excellent; it is one thing to understand the solution; it is even a better thing to be able to communicate it, it is superior to express the solution clearly in short sweat words. Chesterton would be proud of you.

 

[jkiernan56]

To modify this slightly…

If my son Bobby stole your truck, something that I did caused your truck to be stolen, but I did not steal your truck. God is the indirect cause of evil, but He is not responsible for evil.

Again I respectfully disagree. God is neither the direct or indirect “CAUSE” of evil.

God gives existence to what is Good. He does not CAUSE it to become corrupted. He gives the “means” for it to be corrupted, but giving the means DOES NOT indirectly CAUSE evil (ie - good to be corrupted).

If I gave you a hammer as a gift to build a house and you use it to bash someone’s head in with it - my giving you the hammer DID NOT CAUSE you to use it in a destructive way. My giving you a gift is NOT the CAUSE or even INDIRECT CAUSE of you using it to do evil. I reject any notion or inference that God is either the CAUSE or INDIRECT CAUSE of evil. The “means” to do evil DOES NOT CAUSE evil - but certainly allows the possibility. Allowing the possibility of evil again DOES NOT directly or indirectly CAUSE evil.