Did God Have Control over the Effects of Original Sin?

[clarkal]

Hi,

A question I have always wondered about.

The book of Genesis makes it seem like He does. He increases the woman’s labor pains, man will toil, etc.

But is this just literary? God would never purposely create something like anxiety disorders such as OCD which clash with his belief system and make life unbearable, right? (I can’t even begin to imagine what life would be like believing in Catholicism without medication for these mental problems.)

So, was it under his control or not? I am thinking not. It’s a free will thing, right?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Here is my attempt at answering some of your questions…

Because Adam was the head of the whole human race, his original sin has deprived us of God’s blessings and holiness that would have been bestowed upon us had Adam & Eve not sinned. God is not unjust in punishing us for this, because original sin does keep us from anything we have a strict right to. It witholds God’s free gifts, which He, in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned.

God allows suffering physical ailments because they are the result of our weaknesses in body & mind. Physical evil is partly a punishment for actual sin, and serves to sanctify the good, helping them to achieve eternal salvation. God often sends physical punishment to sinners to bring them back to the faith. ( a warning)

It’s hard to imagine why God would permit mental sufferings such as OCD. For my sister, who is afflicted with OCD, medication & prayer, along with an incredibly strong faith in God are her remedies. Frequent confession & Communion, devotion to the Holy Mother of God, and prayer to the angels and saints are what keep her going.

 

[clarkal]

Paramedicgirl,

Thank you for replying.

paramedicgirl:

Here is my attempt at answering some of your questions…

Because Adam was the head of the whole human race, his original sin has deprived us of God’s blessings and holiness that would have been bestowed upon us had Adam & Eve not sinned. God is not unjust in punishing us for this, because original sin does keep us from anything we have a strict right to. It witholds God’s free gifts, which He, in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned.

I see…

Well, I know of the ‘Adam was the head of the whole human race’ view and therefore it is just for his children to be punished.

But I can’t see the connection. I don’t see why this means that it is just for us to undergo punishment, to have to deal with immense pain, for the actions of one man.

For example, would it be just for us to punish a barbaric dictator for his actions or him *and *his people, who most likely do not want anything to do with him?

Or say you’re the head of a household. You perform an evil action and then you *and *your children are punished immensly, dare I say tortured? That doesn’t sound just to me, and I doubt anyone would say, Yes, it is just for all of us to be punished, for I am the head of the household.

If these are false analogies, please correct me.

paramedicgirl:

It’s hard to imagine why God would permit mental sufferings such as OCD. For my sister, who is afflicted with OCD, medication & prayer, along with an incredibly strong faith in God are her remedies. Frequent confession & Communion, devotion to the Holy Mother of God, and prayer to the angels and saints are what keep her going.

First, let me say that I know what your sister is going through. I completely sympathize with her and your family. I know what it’s like for family members to witness something like this happening to her. I wish her all the best and peace of mind.

It is hard to imagine, though. Too many people have taken their own lives over their extreme anxiety about religious issues, which are mainly hell and sin. Why would God permit this defect? I mean, he knew that it would clash with his religious system so badly and cause untold suffering. I suppose that If he does not permit it, then he does not have any control over the effects of original sin. I think it’s about free will.

Well, thanks again for your reply. I await your response.

best,

clarkal

 

[paramedicgirl]

You said* " Well, I know of the ‘Adam was the head of the whole human race’ view and therefore it is just for his children to be punished.

But I can’t see the connection. I don’t see why this means that it is just for us to undergo punishment, to have to deal with immense pain, for the actions of one man. "*

When Adam & Eve lost their sanctifying grace, their minds and wills were so weakened that they became inclined to evil, and we inherited that from them, just as if we would have inherited their grace & holiness if they had not sinned. “Therefore as through one man sin has entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death has passed to all men” (Romans 5:12)

You said, *" For example, would it be just for us to punish a barbaric dictator for his actions or him *and his people, who most likely do not want anything to do with him? "

For example, the ruler of a country represents the whole nation and when he declares war, all of his people suffer. They are all affected by his acts, whether they support him or not.

You also said," *Or say you’re the head of a household. You perform an evil action and then you *and your children are punished immensly, dare I say tortured? That doesn’t sound just to me, and I doubt anyone would say, Yes, it is just for all of us to be punished, for I am the head of the household."

In much the same way, the chidren suffer when a rich man loses his fortune, for then they have no inheritance. When a king is dethroned, his children no longer are heirs to the throne.

Also, "It is hard to imagine, though. Too many people have taken their own lives over their extreme anxiety about religious issues, which are mainly hell and sin. Why would God permit this defect? I mean, he knew that it would clash with his religious system so badly and cause untold suffering. I suppose that If he does not permit it, then he does not have any control over the effects of original sin. I think it’s about free will"

Yes, hell & sin are part of the realities of Christianity. But focusing too much on hell and sin can cause anxiety. It’s better for peace of mind to direct more of our focus on the goodness of God and His mercy. Great peace of mind can come from meditating on God’s mercy.

Suicide is the sin of those in despair, who have lost hope and trust in God’s mercy and goodness. God can carry people through all adversities, if they only have faith in Him. By the way, even though the Church publicly condemns suicide (as self-murder) it does not mean that those souls are condemned to hell. Their judgement is in the hands of God.

Lastly, It’s not that God has no control over the effects of Original Sin, it’s just that God allows us to excercise our free will, even if it is not in our best interests. He can, however, and often does, draw good from our evil choices.

I hope this helps.

 

[Emly]

Gdo allows us free will. when we sin, its of our own will. eve sinne by taking the apple from Satan, and Adam sinned by nto stopping Eve from eatting the apple and giving in to “peer pressure” (eve also sinned because she offer Adam one0. People, will say taht Adam only ate the apple because he was told to, but he was teh protecter of the land, and of Eve. We are the ones who brough human nature upon ourselves…due to free will…

Why did God give us a free will? Because without a free will, we would do nothing with lLet’s say soem person puts a gun to your head and says "lvoe me and amrry me!’ Would you marry him, but coudl you really love them? god is not just some robot, he loves us as his chidlren. You would nto want your children just to lvoe you because you said they would ahve tgo to timeout, they don’t want to go to timeout, because they love you.

did God foresee the fall of man? Almost certainlly. But the only way to stop the fall of man, woudl be to take away freewill. Did eh see Satan’s fall? Yes.So why did Gdo not just destroy him? Well, let’s jsut say not all answers can be answered with out minds.

So why do bad things happen to good eeople? Simply this, so we can replie tottally on God, and suffering always seems to open our hearts to compassion on each other, and the culture. I got that from FAther from EWTN.

The expression “happy fall” is very much a paradox. There is silver lineing in the fall, and that is the coming of Christ, adn his death on a corss, and his resurection.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

You said, *" For example, would it be just for us to punish a barbaric dictator for his actions or him *and **his people, who most likely do not want anything to do with him? "

For example, the ruler of a country represents the whole nation and when he declares war, all of his people suffer. They are all affected by his acts, whether they support him or not.

I think that whether they are affected by the ruler’s declaration of war does not matter. What matters is whether it is fair for the people who do not support him, which I don’t see how it is.

paramedicgirl:

In much the same way, the chidren suffer when a rich man loses his fortune, for then they have no inheritance.

I agree that the children are affected, but I think it is still unfair, because they are innocent children who have no choice in the matter.

If you gambled away your money on roulette, do you think it would be right to let your children share in your newfound poverty and suffer with you or would you send them to your rich brother-in-law? No, because it was your bad decision. It’s not their fault. Why should they suffer?

Similarly, a crack addict will give up a child knowing that he does not deserve her situation, that it would be unfair for the child to suffer her circumstances because of her bad decisions.

But the difference between your second example and the story of Original Sin is that Adam and Eve had children after they committed their sin, which I think is somewhat damnable, because they are then responsible for having babies knowing full well that they would share in their fallen state. And if God didn’t tell them what would happen, then He is responsible. Also, God foresaw what would happen if humans kept populating the Earth. He knew ahead of time of all the unimaginable suffering that would occur, every disease and every war, every damned soul.

You might argue free will here, but what of it? To use another analogy, if your 12 year old was considering doing cocaine, would you say, knowing that she wasn’t as intelligent and knowledgeable as you are, “I wouldn’t do that, as it’s really bad for your body and mommy will punish you severely, but it’s your free will, so go ahead if you really want to, because I respect your free will.” I doubt anyone would and harsher measures would be taken. But we’re not even talking about a 12 year old doing crack. We’re talking about something infinitely worse: eternal misery.

paramedicgirl:

When a king is dethroned, his children no longer are heirs to the throne.

See above.

paramedicgirl:

Yes, hell & sin are part of the realities of Christianity. But focusing too much on hell and sin can cause anxiety. It’s better for peace of mind to direct more of our focus on the goodness of God and His mercy. Great peace of mind can come from meditating on God’s mercy.

Yes, I agree. There has to be a balance.

paramedicgirl:

Suicide is the sin of those in despair, who have lost hope and trust in God’s mercy and goodness. God can carry people through all adversities, if they only have faith in Him. By the way, even though the Church publicly condemns suicide (as self-murder) it does not mean that those souls are condemned to hell. Their judgement is in the hands of God.

I know. I used to be Catholic.

paramedicgirl:

Lastly, It’s not that God has no control over the effects of Original Sin, it’s just that God allows us to excercise our free will, even if it is not in our best interests. He can, however, and often does, draw good from our evil choices.

I understand, but what about my 12 year old analogy?

paramedicgirl:

hope this helps.

Thank you. Please refute me as you see fit. I’m always willing to know if I’m wrong and learn something in the process.

 

[clarkal]

One more thing, just in case this comes up: that it is better for a person to exist than not to, even in a fallen state and even if he ends up in hell.

If it does, I ask, What of Judas? Jesus said of Judas: “It would be better for that man if he had not been born.”

clarkal

 

[barsapp]

COUNCIL OF TRENT DECREE CONCERNING ORIGINAL SIN

…the sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent…ordains, confesses, and declares these things touching the said original sin:

1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.
2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:–whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.
4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven. But this holy synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned. This concupiscence, which the apostle sometimes calls sin, the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin, as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin, and inclines to sin.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

I think that whether they are affected by the ruler’s declaration of war does not matter. What matters is whether it is fair for the people who do not support him, which I don’t see how it is.

I agree that the children are affected, but I think it is still unfair, because they are innocent children who have no choice in the matter.

If you gambled away your money on roulette, do you think it would be right to let your children share in your newfound poverty and suffer with you or would you send them to your rich brother-in-law? No, because it was your bad decision. It’s not their fault. Why should they suffer? .

Because sin has consequences. It is a great responsibility before God to inflict the consequences of our sin onto others.

clarkal:

But the difference between your second example and the story of Original Sin is that Adam and Eve had children after they committed their sin, which I think is somewhat damnable, because they are then responsible for having babies knowing full well that they would share in their fallen state. And if God didn’t tell them what would happen, then He is responsible. Also, God foresaw what would happen if humans kept populating the Earth. He knew ahead of time of all the unimaginable suffering that would occur, every disease and every war, every damned soul.

God is not responsible for Adam & Eve’s choices. Not is He responsible for our choices. He gave us free will to love Him or not to love Him. And then He did the most unimaginable, loving thing for us. He sent his only begotten Son to die on the cross for us, to redeem all of humanity for all time. Here again, our gift of free will that God bestowed on us made some of us accept His Son and some of us reject His saving graces.

clarkal:

You might argue free will here, but what of it? To use another analogy, if your 12 year old was considering doing cocaine, would you say, knowing that she wasn’t as intelligent and knowledgeable as you are, “I wouldn’t do that, as it’s really bad for your body and mommy will punish you severely, but it’s your free will, so go ahead if you really want to, because I respect your free will.” I doubt anyone would and harsher measures would be taken. But we’re not even talking about a 12 year old doing crack. We’re talking about something infinitely worse: eternal misery.

Who’s to say God doesn’t continually steer us in the right direction? God keeps showering us with graces to make the right decision. It is up to us whether or not we listen. Just like the 12 year old in your example who may or may not listen to his mother’s pleading. God sometimes even stops us in our tracks to get our attention - have you ever had an experience of that happening? I know I have…

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Because sin has consequences. It is a great responsibility before God to inflict the consequences of our sin onto others.

So you think that it is fair for the little innocents to suffer for an adult’s stupid mistakes then? I personally do not. (Remember we’re also using this as an analogy for Original Sin).

paramedicgirl:

God is not responsible for Adam & Eve’s choices. Not is He responsible for our choices. He gave us free will to love Him or not to love Him.

I think he is. When you are an infinite being with unlimited wisdom and knowledge, it would seem that, if you knew that two people with a very limited intellect and understanding had the fate of humanity in their hands and would sin against you and cause basically the ruin and suffering of countless generations, then who wouldn’t step in and not let those two imbeciles make this horribly wrong decision, no matter how much you “respected” their free will.

It is like putting a child in front of a nuclear missle launching button and saying, “Don’t hit that button or else!” except the consequences are infinitely more damaging.

paramedicgirl:

Who’s to say God doesn’t continually steer us in the right direction? God keeps showering us with graces to make the right decision. It is up to us whether or not we listen. Just like the 12 year old in your example who may or may not listen to his mother’s pleading. God sometimes even stops us in our tracks to get our attention - have you ever had an experience of that happening? I know I have…

Not me. But my point with the 12 year old analogy was that something needs to be done other than warning a child: “I wouldn’t do that, as it’s really bad for your body and mommy will punish you severely, but it’s your free will, so go ahead if you really want to, because I respect your free will.”

Compare this to Adam and Eve’s situation and up the seriousness to an infinite degree and you have it. Adam and Eve were children in God’s sight, no matter how intelligent or wise they were. How could they possibly understand infinite consequences?

Also, I have had moments of conscience that have hit me like lightning. But I do not consider them divine, as a lot of my moments of conscience go against the Church’s moral teachings.

Thanks for responding. I’m enjoying this discussion.

best,

clarkal

 

[clarkal]

Barsapp,

You weren’t trying to scare this little o’ atheist with all those ‘let him be anathema’ statements, were you?

Just kidding. Thanks for the information. I think I’ve read it before.

 

[Steven_Merten]

clarkal:

Barsapp,

You weren’t trying to scare this little o’ atheist with all those ‘let him be anathema’ statements, were you?

Just kidding. Thanks for the information. I think I’ve read it before.

Good question clarkal.

Does the Church have control over the effects of not following the Church?

barsapp:

COUNCIL OF TRENT DECREE CONCERNING ORIGINAL SIN

1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted;… let him be anathema.
2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema
3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,–which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema:
4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, –let him be anathema.
5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.

Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Barsapp,

You weren’t trying to scare this little o’ atheist with all those ‘let him be anathema’ statements, were you?

Just kidding. Thanks for the information. I think I’ve read it before.

You are a remarkably well informed atheist!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Human minds are limited. What we think “fair” or “unfair” is based on HUMAN standards.

Was it “fair” that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of OTHERS? No, it wasn’t. It was far more than fair. . .it was MERCIFUL.

So I wouldn’t be too quick to intimate that there can’t be a “fair” God because Mr. X or Ms. Y see “unfairness” all around and leap to the conclusion that because they (in their limited human way) see unfairness, and since God must allow it, then God can’t be “fair”.

We don’t see the whole picture. We can’t. We can’t even understand the mind of one other person, we can’t even fully understand our own minds, or our own bodies. . .and yet we think we can judge “fair” or “unfair” for an entire species for eternity? I think not.

I don’t focus on all the “unfair” things in life by “passing the buck” to a cavalier deist god, or attempt to dismiss them by sidestepping god completely through atheism. I hope that does not sound rude, but quite honestly the impression I get from so many who complain of “injustice” is that they are quite content to blame God on down for not being “fair”, yet strangely enough, considering that they themselves are obviously more “JUST” than GOD, they seem to do remarkably little about trying to correct unfairness, beyond tut-tutting about the awfulness of everybody who isn’t a member of their “crowd”.

IOW, the average person who points out a flaw of some kind to BEGIN with, is usually doing so to inflate his or her own ego and to deflate, or attempt to deflate, others. . .and only rarely does that person start a discussion because he or she has something concrete and helpful to offer to help ALLEVIATE the original wrong of which they complain.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

You are a remarkably well informed atheist!!

That’s very flattering. I honestly do not know a lot. I am admittedly quite ignorant, which is why I have come here to challenge my reasons for unbelief and to clear up any misunderstandings I might have about Christianity in general. However, I used to be an orthodox Roman Catholic, and although that doesn’t make me an expert on the subject, I’d say that I do know more than the average Joe about the Church.

 

[clarkal]

Tantum ergo:

Human minds are limited. What we think “fair” or “unfair” is based on HUMAN standards.

Was it “fair” that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of OTHERS? No, it wasn’t. It was far more than fair. . .it was MERCIFUL.

Substitute the word fair for just and unfair for unjust. If you do not believe that humans have an innate sense of justice, that’s fine, but I think that they do. Even primates do.

And I think the justice of Original Sin is so perverse that a good majority of people would recognize it. And I think they do, but it is sometimes swept under the rug with saying, ‘God’s ways are not our ways’., etc., or, ‘You’ve just gotta have faith’. Granted, they may be said in sophisticated ways, but, from what I’ve read, I see a lot of it.
Tantum ergo:

I don’t focus on all the “unfair” things in life by “passing the buck” to a cavalier deist god, or attempt to dismiss them by sidestepping god completely through atheism. I hope that does not sound rude, but quite honestly the impression I get from so many who complain of “injustice” is that they are quite content to blame God on down for not being “fair”, yet strangely enough, considering that they themselves are obviously more “JUST” than GOD, they seem to do remarkably little about trying to correct unfairness, beyond tut-tutting about the awfulness of everybody who isn’t a member of their “crowd”.

I disagree with this immensely if you are saying that freethinkers do little to help balance the injustice in the world. Need I mention secular humanism?
Tantum Ergo:

IOW, the average person who points out a flaw of some kind to BEGIN with, is usually doing so to inflate his or her own ego and to deflate, or attempt to deflate, others. . .and only rarely does that person start a discussion because he or she has something concrete and helpful to offer to help ALLEVIATE the original wrong of which they complain.

Well, I am not doing that, as you can see from my other post.

 

[clarkal]

Paramedicgirl,

Oh, and if you want to see atheists so erudite that it’s scary, check out the forums at the Secular Web (www.infidels.org).

Admittedly, there are also some not so intelligent people there, but isn’t that true of every board?

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Paramedicgirl,

Oh, and if you want to see atheists so erudite that it’s scary, check out the forums at the Secular Web (www.infidels.org).

Admittedly, there are also some not so intelligent people there, but isn’t that true of every board?

Having a conversation with one atheist is enough for me, thanks! You said you were formerly an orthodox Catholic. May I ask how you became an atheist? What caused you to challenge God’s existence?
*"Only the fool says in his heart: “There is no God” (Ps.13:1) *

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

So you think that it is fair for the little innocents to suffer for an adult’s stupid mistakes then? I personally do not. (Remember we’re also using this as an analogy for Original Sin).

I didn’t say life is fair. And as I said in my first post, God is not unjust in punishing us for Adam’s sin. Original sin, our punishment, does not take away anything we have an inherent right to. God simply removed his free gifts he would have given us, had Adam not sinned. That made us subject to disease & death, with an inclination to evil, and to forever have our reason in conflict with our passions. It’s that simple.

clarkal:

When you are an infinite being with unlimited wisdom and knowledge, it would seem that, if you knew that two people with a very limited intellect and understanding had the fate of humanity in their hands and would sin against you and cause basically the ruin and suffering of countless generations, then who wouldn’t step in and not let those two imbeciles make this horribly wrong decision, no matter how much you “respected” their free will.

How could they possibly understand infinite consequences?

Remember, Adam & Eve wanted to be as powerful & great as God. They defied God and despised His warnings. God was just in punishing them. Maybe if you can understand that we did not inherit the punishment of Adam’s personal sin, but of his sin as head of the whole human race, then you will be able to understand that all Adam’s descendants are justly subject to suffering.

clarkal:

Also, I have had moments of conscience that have hit me like lightning. But I do not consider them divine, as a lot of my moments of conscience go against the Church’s moral teachings.

Thanks for responding. I’m enjoying this discussion.

best,

clarkal

If you know these moments are not inspired by God, then you may be dancing with the devil

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Having a conversation with one atheist is enough for me, thanks! You said you were formerly an orthodox Catholic. May I ask how you became an atheist? What caused you to challenge God’s existence?
*"Only the fool says in his heart: “There is no God” (Ps.13:1) *

Did you just call me a fool? Why, I oughta…

When talking with an atheist, *never *quote that verse. It does no good in helping you win him over to your cause. Most atheists love it when that verse is quoted to them and simply laugh at it, and the humorous ones will even quote back to you the verse which says that those who call another a fool will be in danger of hellfire. Others, however, will be upset and think that you’re insulting them. I don’t think it’s a wise thing to do. It doesn’t help progress.

How did I become an atheist? Where do I begin?

For all my life, I have had an extreme anxiety condition and obsessive-compulsive disorder. When I reverted to Catholicism and became serious about the faith, the teaching of eternal punishment became a reality to me. It wasn’t some misty or airy dungeon of spiritual torture somewhere in the back of the cosmos: It was in the same room as I was in. It was as real as this keyboard I am typing on right now. As my father was dying of cancer, I had many doubts about whether he would end up in this fiery pit. He did great things and influenced so many people, but he was not religious, and he told me that he had indeed committed Mortal Sins and hadn’t been to confession in about 30 years. Naturally, I feared for his soul. With this anxiety, I began having the classic doubts about the doctrine of eternal punishment that almost every person goes through. During this time when my father was slowly and painfully dying from cancer, I was hospitalized for my abnormal behavior caused by the OCD and religious teachings on the hospital’s mental ward floor for about 5 days. On the day I was released, my father was in and out of consciousness and, shortly afterward, eventually died. I missed so much crucial time with him because of my OCD and religion, and saying that I’m a little pissed off is a gross understatement. I felt like I was abandonded by the heavenly court in my time of need.

After his death, I was thinking about hell constantly and whether he was actually there, which is a terrifying thought for a son who loves his father and thinks the world of him. Yes, if he’s there, it was his decision, his free will, and it is a just punishment, and when – if – you get to heaven, you will have a full view of the burning multitudes, and you will not have any pity or sadness towards them but joy knowing that God’s glory and justice were being glorified (I know the last bit isn’t official, but it’s what I thought at the time after reading Aquinas.)

In my attempt to get some answers to my doubts about hell, I stumbled upon the Secular Web’s web site. I read Robert Green Ingersoll, Richard Carrier, Robert M. Price, Biblical Errancy and Biblical Criticsm. I read their message board frequently and followed the formal debates and posters whom I knew were extremely intelligent and erudite. I read atheistic books, but I also read Christian apologetics, but in my mind, in the end, I decided that the skeptics were in the right.

What convinced me in the end at this point? That’s really hard to pin down, but I’ll try to recall and give it some more thought. I know that Biblical Criticism played a huge role and the writings of Ingersoll also. But there were so many things going on in my head, so many objections, so much apologetics, that I can’t recall what finally pushed me over the edge.

Enough about me. Why are you Catholic?

best,

clarkal