Did God make us genetically/biologically inclined to sin?

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JamesCaruso said:
Interesting. I would have thought Catholic theologians would have delved a lot more into the pre-fall GOE and the post-fall world. I have always viewed the GOE, Paradise, to be a blissful place with no worries of the common kind found in our present day world. I would not expect that a tornado could hit Adam’s neighborhood in the GOE, nor a lion detach his limbs. I would doubt he could cut his foot on a stone and bleed to death, or lose an arm from frostbite. But maybe that’s just my naive thinking on what Eden must have been. In fact, I tend to see it as a different dimension, which we are cut off from experiencing due to sin., in which all the elements, and all the animals, were tame, a place of perfect harmony. Am I alone in this view?
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i think of St Francis - there would be a harmony with their world such that peace would enter into the creatures around them
i’m not sure this would extend to the elements, but at any rate they would be experienced differently, as you indicate, without worries
i think Eden was in the Middle East, geographically
the banishment i understand as having to do with this spiritual dimension/state of being; they then found themselves in the same location, but it was completely different
i’m not sure it makes a difference to the essential message, but it is interesting to speculate
 
The fall of man changed everything. It changed the world into a generally hostile, hostile place. We forget how hostile it with our comfortable modern life. Man’s nature matches the hostile world in which it lives. For example, it is very difficult for someone to loose weight. Why? The body assumes the next famine is only a meal away so it jealously guards its fat reserves from depleting.

The same goes for human fertility. Human fertility is “calibrated” so that the population will expand even in times of sadly high infant mortality rates, malnutrition, mothers dying in childbirth, diseases, and the like.

In modern times we have modern medicine and plentiful food. People are fertile for much longer in their lives thanks to good nutrition. Most babies survive to adulthood. This is a wonderful thing. But it means that humans are operating way out of calibration, so to speak. We desire much more sex than is strictly necessary. Even a married couple, if they just let their natural fertility run its course, would have more offspring than would be prudent because their children survive and they remain able to have kids into an older age.

It is a problem. In some ways it is a good problem to have but, in my mind, the fallenness of both the world and human nature does not allow for a perfectly good solution. Any way of dealing with it falls short of being perfectly good. That includes, by the way, “natural” family planning. I find using your intellect to figure out when a woman is most fertile and consciously abstaining during those periods to be the opposite of “natural.”

It is a real bummer. The devil, the world, and our flesh are all working against us. We need a savior to save us from this dismal situation we find ourselves in. Praise God he sent one!
 
JamesCaruso said:
Interesting. I have always viewed the GOE, Paradise, to be a blissful place with no worries of the common kind found in our present day world.
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Yes I think you are right. Without suffering or worry - which may not be the same as total happiness but still peaceful.
 
Aloysium said:
i think of St Francis - there would be a harmony with their world such that peace would enter into the creatures around them
i’m not sure this would extend to the elements, but at any rate they would be experienced differently, as you indicate, without worries
i think Eden was in the Middle East, geographically
the banishment i understand as having to do with this spiritual dimension/state of being; they then found themselves in the same location, but it was completely different
i’m not sure it makes a difference to the essential message, but it is interesting to speculate
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I’m with you on your understanding, or speculation as you say more correctly. Their banishment was from a certain spiritual dimension, but they remained in the same general locale. As to the elements, I’m thinking of when Jesus said, “For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and famines.” This leads me to speculate that earthquakes and other natural phenomenon, disease, drought, etc. might connected with the spiritual state of the world. Some religious people say they are sent by God to punish us for sin, but maybe its more like the natural influence that sin has on the physical world we live in, sort of like a built-in response to evil, like fever, body aches and vomiting are the built in response to certain infections in the body.

Which is more substantial, spirit or the physical world? God is Spirit and He create the physical world. So it would not surprise me that the world’s spiritual state could influence the weather and other natural phenomenon. But it doesn’t raise fear in me, thinking if we are in the boat with Jesus, and He will calm the waves to keep us from sinking.
 
if eve did no eat that apple…everyone would be in paradise right now.
 
knightbird111 said:
if eve did no eat that apple…everyone would be in paradise right now.
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No, if Adam did not eat it… The Church teaches that it was Adam’s sin that causes all of us to inherit original sin.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.”293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. --The Catholic Catechism
 
JamesCaruso said:
No, if Adam did not eat it… The Church teaches that it was Adam’s sin that causes all of us to inherit original sin.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.”293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. --The Catholic Catechism
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Eve was first to eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden that God had instructed she and Adam not to eat. The Bible does not say what type of fruit it was
 
knightbird111 said:
Eve was first to eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden that God had instructed she and Adam not to eat. The Bible does not say what type of fruit it was
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how about if the Garden of Eden was a spiritual condition of being in the presence of God
here on earth
the two trees at the centre, the wood at the centre of the Garden,
the centre of our face-to-face relationship with God was the wood of the cross
the cross which is Christ’s death and resurrection
two aspects of the cross, two trees bearing fruit
tree of the knowledge of good and evil contained the serpent: sin
its fruit is death
eating of the sin that killed our saviour on the cross,
we were banished from the most real of experiences,
that of being on earth in the presence of God.
An angel and fiery sword blocks our way back to the garden
but through the sacrifice of our saviour, through the eucharist
we have the hope of eternal life with God in the New Jerusalem

that’s how I see it
 
knightbird111 said:
if eve did no eat that apple…everyone would be in paradise right now.
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According to the Catholic Church, Adam was the first human created, not Eve. It is in Adam that humanity was as one body of one man. While Eve sinned, it is Adam who shattered humanity’s relationship with the Creator. By this unity of all humans, Adam’s wounded nature was transmitted to all his descendants by propagation. By this unity of human nature, Christ died for all of us.

Sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 396-409; Romans 5: 12-21
 
knightbird111 said:
Eve was first to eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden that God had instructed she and Adam not to eat. The Bible does not say what type of fruit it was
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That is because Original Sin is Adam’s free decision to prefer himself over God and by that act of choice, he scorned his Creator. The case is that God is the almighty Creator and Adam is the creature The creature does not have power over the Creator; therefore, the creature has to live in loving submission. In other words, when God gives a commandment for the creature’s own good, the creature has to comply or else.:eek:

The commandment not to eat the fruit of a particular tree was a commandment of obedience. Obviously, Adam did not obey; thus, he preferred his own way against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.

Obviously, there is nothing “genetic” in making an informed decision. (A bunch of genes did not meet nor did they vote on the action.)

–Therefore God did not make Adam or his descendants biologically inclined to sin.
 
knightbird111 said:
Eve was first to eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden that God had instructed she and Adam not to eat. The Bible does not say what type of fruit it was
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It was from Adam that the human race inherited original sin, even though he was not the first to eat. Perhaps the reasoning is that from Adam came the whole human race. Eve was taken from him, and from them, the rest of the human race. The Catechism teaches that original sin was not “committed” by those who came after Adam, but that they “contracted” it.
 
Re: Did God make us genetically/biologically inclined to sin?

Sooo, God is RESPONSIBLE for our sins??! You know as I do that this is NOT the case!

The answer to ‘inclinations’ have been posted by others - in regard what The Church says about our inheritance, for want of a better word, toward sin.

There are some who feel ‘inclined’ towards animals, children, objects, etc. The fact is, we are not called to be ‘natural’ but to be SUPERnatural. To master our selves and not surrender to that which we already know to be false or erroneous. Where we are uncertain, or do not know, we look to the guidance of The Church and see Her stance confirmed by her Scriptures.

:cool:
 
Deconi said:
Re: Did God make us genetically/biologically inclined to sin?

Sooo, God is RESPONSIBLE for our sins??! You know as I do that this is NOT the case!

The answer to ‘inclinations’ have been posted by others - in regard what The Church says about our inheritance, for want of a better word, toward sin.

There are some who feel ‘inclined’ towards animals, children, objects, etc. The fact is, we are not called to be ‘natural’ but to be SUPERnatural. To master our selves and not surrender to that which we already know to be false or erroneous. Where we are uncertain, or do not know, we look to the guidance of The Church and see Her stance confirmed by her Scriptures.

:cool:
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Of course, God is not responsible for our sins, or for the inclination we have to sin.

Adam and Eve made themselves inclined to sin by sinning, which weakened their defenses against sin. The same principle is involved when a person takes drugs. After a while they find it difficult to stop taking them.

The Church says that Adam and Eve ultimately overcame that leaning toward sin and we celebrate their feast day as saints of the Church on December 24.

We, OTOH, don’t make ourselves weak against sin, we “contract” the weakness from our parents in a line all the way back to Adam and Eve; we also contract original sin. The sin is washed away in baptism, but the weakness remains, although we can be made stronger by Baptism and the other sacraments of the Church. That’s how I see it.
 
JamesCaruso said:
Of course, God is not responsible for our sins, or for the inclination we have to sin.

Adam and Eve made themselves inclined to sin by sinning, which weakened their defenses against sin. The same principle is involved when a person takes drugs. After a while they find it difficult to stop taking them.

The Church says that Adam and Eve ultimately overcame that leaning toward sin and we celebrate their feast day as saints of the Church on December 24.

We, OTOH, don’t make ourselves weak against sin, we “contract” the weakness from our parents in a line all the way back to Adam and Eve; we also contract original sin. The sin is washed away in baptism, but the weakness remains, although we can be made stronger by Baptism and the other sacraments of the Church. That’s how I see it.
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I find the posts on here - difficult to follow, are they saying Adam and Eve is a true story, it is just a parable. We know that humans evolved.
 
aprilfloyd said:
I find the posts on here - difficult to follow, are they saying Adam and Eve is a true story, it is just a parable. We know that humans evolved.
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Adam and Eve are real people with a real human nature. It is an error to think that the spiritual principle of human nature could materially evolve in any way. Being spiritual, the spiritual soul can only be created by a transcendent Pure Spirit. God is real, not a parable.🙂
 
aprilfloyd said:
I find the posts on here - difficult to follow, are they saying Adam and Eve is a true story, it is just a parable. We know that humans evolved.
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The Church says that Adam and Eve are real people. The Church does not deny nor affirm that man evolved. It is only saying that man was not human until God breathed a human soul into him. That could have happened after thousands of years of evolution. Or, that could have happened as a spontaneous creation of the man, Adam. That is my understanding of the Catholic position in a nutshell.
 
grannymh said:
Adam and Eve are real people with a real human nature. It is an error to think that the spiritual principle of human nature could materially evolve in any way. Being spiritual, the spiritual soul can only be created by a transcendent Pure Spirit. God is real, not a parable.🙂
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Can you explain what the *‘spiritual principle of human nature’
  • is.
I don’t understand how any aspect of a human being could not have evolved. We exist through evolution.
 
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