Did I steal?

[Sooner87]

 

[BillP]

My Brother,
I believe Preach the gospel use words when necessary is often attributed to St Francis. Not Augustine. Augustine was KNOWN for his words. Turns out though, it was a biographer who used those words to describe the Franciscan philosophy.
thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/11/factchecker-misquoting-francis-of-assisi/

Despite your somewhat pedantic and patronizing correction ("winking’ while being pedantic and patronizing doesn’t excuse the pedantry or patronizing) of my attribution of the quote, it still communicates my position.

I also believe that “preach the gospel…” is many times misused as an excuse to not speak and to not evangelize.

So, you don’t trust people who “walk the walk” but don’t “talk the talk”. Got it.

I don’t trust people who say “Do as I say, not as I do”.

I think, for example, that Mother Teresa was a FAR more effective evangelist than Paul VI. Not that I have any great brief against Paul VI, mind you, I just think the good mother provided a far more effective example of living the Christian life and what it entailed.

I find this troubling knowing many saints have died specifically because they spoke of Christ. Or refused to speak against Him. Including St Francis.

In 1219 Francis walked into the heart of the beast in Egypt, right up to the Sultan, and preached the Gospel. The Sultan was astounded that he dare do this because it meant certain death.

Stealing from one’s neighbors without their knowledge can hardly be construed as “preaching the Gospel” . Where does the Church teach that theft is an appropriate way to “preach the gospel”? The OP couldn’t be bothered to go to his neighbors that evening, introduce himself and explain why the literature they had received was in error. He just impulsively decided that they shouldn’t have it and stole it from them.

His conscious seems to have bothered him enough that he came here for validation.

Doesn’t sound like the “bumpersticker quote above” next to a COEXIST bumpersticker if you ask me.

This is just a cheap ad hominem attack on me attempting to infer that I am an adherent of some sort of “new age” spiritualistic movement. And frankly is an example of exactly what I’m talking about.

You see everyone that not explicitly in agreement with you as in error, and therefore subject to whatever correction measures you see fit to administer including personal insults (“COEXIST” bumpersticker forsooth!) and suggestions that they are lacking in character.

I also believe that “preach the gospel…” is many times misused as an excuse to not speak and to not evangelize.

Because you, apparently, have been given authority and knowledge denied the rest of us. Or at least believe that you have.

Where does this “my way or the highway:” attitude toward your neighbor come from?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Despite your somewhat pedantic and patronizing correction ("winking’ while being pedantic and patronizing doesn’t excuse the pedantry or patronizing) of my attribution of the quote, it still communicates my position.

So, you don’t trust people who “walk the walk” but don’t “talk the talk”. Got it.

I don’t trust people who say “Do as I say, not as I do”.

I think, for example, that Mother Teresa was a FAR more effective evangelist than Paul VI. Not that I have any great brief against Paul VI, mind you, I just think the good mother provided a far more effective example of living the Christian life and what it entailed.

Stealing from one’s neighbors without their knowledge can hardly be construed as “preaching the Gospel” . Where does the Church teach that theft is an appropriate way to “preach the gospel”? The OP couldn’t be bothered to go to his neighbors that evening, introduce himself and explain why the literature they had received was in error. He just impulsively decided that they shouldn’t have it and stole it from them.

His conscious seems to have bothered him enough that he came here for validation.

This is just a cheap ad hominem attack on me attempting to infer that I am an adherent of some sort of “new age” spiritualistic movement. And frankly is an example of exactly what I’m talking about.

You see everyone that not explicitly in agreement with you as in error, and therefore subject to whatever correction measures you see fit to administer including personal insults (“COEXIST” bumpersticker forsooth!) and suggestions that they are lacking in character.

Because you, apparently, have been given authority and knowledge denied the rest of us. Or at least believe that you have.

Where does this “my way or the highway:” attitude toward your neighbor come from?

I was really hoping you could do all of that without words.

I can see that this is upsetting to you. I will not engage you further.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

For those who are unaware:

What we are talking about here are Jack Chick Tracts
Vile pieces of former trees that are littered around for the main purpose of bringing people away from the Truth. You can bet Jesus detests these evil tracts.
You can find them in grocery store bags, movie theater seats, windshields, etc.

JWs carpet bomb an area and canvas it with material.

A CA apologist wrote a book on the subject and infiltrated the JWs.

Personally, I engage JWs or Mormons whenever I can. Charitably and calmly. I invite them in and share the Gospel with them. I was raised Mormon so I am quite familiar with the teachings and scriptures. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar though. So I invite them in ALWAYS, Offer them food and listen to what they have to say. Then I ask questions and steer the conversation to deeper theological questions. Jesus divinity for JWs and The Great Apostasy with Mormons.

It is LITERALLY opportunity knocking!

JWs print the Jack Chick Tracts knowing that they will be discarded in a most unpleasant manner. However if as some have pointed out you wish to abide by the strict letter of the law. Perhaps the best course of action for the OP would have been to prepare a presentation, wait about a week, go door to door in the neighborhood and say, I noticed some JW leaflets last week. Did you read it? I would like to talk to you about it.

Actually, that is a better way to deal with it. Something we all should think about.

 

[BillP]

For those who are unaware:

What we are talking about here are Jack Chick Tracts
Vile pieces of former trees that are littered around for the main purpose of bringing people away from the Truth. You can bet Jesus detests these evil tracts.
You can find them in grocery store bags, movie theater seats, windshields, etc.

JWs carpet bomb an area and canvas it with material.

A CA apologist wrote a book on the subject and infiltrated the JWs.

Personally, I engage JWs or Mormons whenever I can. Charitably and calmly. I invite them in and share the Gospel with them. I was raised Mormon so I am quite familiar with the teachings and scriptures. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar though. So I invite them in ALWAYS, Offer them food and listen to what they have to say. Then I ask questions and steer the conversation to deeper theological questions. Jesus divinity for JWs and The Great Apostasy with Mormons.

It is LITERALLY opportunity knocking!

JWs print the Jack Chick Tracts knowing that they will be discarded in a most unpleasant manner. However if as some have pointed out you wish to abide by the strict letter of the law. Perhaps the best course of action for the OP would have been to prepare a presentation, wait about a week, go door to door in the neighborhood and say, I noticed some JW leaflets last week. Did you read it? I would like to talk to you about it.

Actually, that is a better way to deal with it. Something we all should think about.

Ummm no. JWs do not print Jack Chick tracts.

Jack Chick is a “Independent Baptist” who is just as insulting toward JWs as he is toward Catholics. See his website at chick.com. He pretty much hates all religions except evangelical Protestantism equally.

JWs get a whole page in the side rail, just like Catholics.

This is why people who think they are equipped to dictate to others scare me. They so often have their facts wrong.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ummm no. JWs do not print Jack Chick tracts.

Jack Chick is a “Independent Baptist” who is just as insulting toward JWs as he is toward Catholics. See his website at chick.com. He pretty much hates all religions except evangelical Protestantism equally.

JWs get a whole page in the side rail, just like Catholics.

This is why people who think they are equipped to dictate to others scare me. They so often have their facts wrong.

ok bill Good day. Watchtower is JW. Kinda like mixing up saints. LOL

 

[JSSD]

Again, Catholicism is correct, Islam is not. And slowing the spread of lies is not the same thing as stoning someone to death, nor is it “disrespecting” them, it is having concern for their souls. We are called to be our brothers’ keeper. And **if knowing that the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth **and acting accordingly is arrogant, then I guess I’m arrogant.

Oof. This is tough. Do you know it or do you believe it? Knowing isn’t the same as faith. Why would you need faith if you knew with certainty? Don’t confuse a very strong faith with absolute knowledge. I have faith and believe that Catholicism is correct, but I cannot know beyond a shadow of doubt that perhaps some other way (Islam, JW, or whatever) is incorrect.

As such, I wouldn’t have touched the literature myself other than my own mailbox. I probably wouldn’t have cared if someone else took my “freebie” - but I won’t “discard” someone else’s religious materials “in a most unpleasant manner.”

 

[ToTheHeights]

No you are not my friend. You are an individual whose heart, perhaps, is in the right place but who advocates poorly thought policies born of arrogance and bigotry, that have in the past caused untold misery, violence and death.

You do realize that we Catholics have to share this planet with about 5.5 Billion people who aren’t Catholic right? Even Catholic Americans have to share their country with more than 250 Million non-Catholics. If you decide that you’re going to interfere with the rights and choices of those 5.5 Billion people arbitrarily because YOU believe you are right how do you think they will treat you?

Attitudes such as yours resulted in the death of about a quarter of the population of Europe during the 30 Year’s War. Despite the fact that they were “right”, Catholic soldiers died in their multitudes just like the Protestant ones. Catholic women were raped and Catholic children were slaughtered just like the Protestant ones their rectitude notwithstanding. Catholic town and villages were burned and sacked even though they were “right” and the Protestant ones were wrong, and of course, just as sacked and burnt as the Catholic ones.

In England, religious differences resulted in the burning and beheadings of 300 or so people on each side of the issue with the Catholic ashes looking much the same as the ashes of their erring Protestant brethren. Things got so bad that the woman responsible for trying to coerce her religion on England is still, almost 500 years later, known as “Bloody Mary”, despite being “right”.

Closer to our time, refusal to respect their neighbor’s religious choices resulted in deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indians and the displacement of millions more in 1947 when India was portioned. And Iraq is still in the throes of a bloody civil war between two varieties of the same religion that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands over the past decade. And all those millions, and hundreds of thousands are “wrong”. Are they any less dead?

Thank God we’ve never had anything like that level of strife here in the US because we respect each others’ right to worship God in our way no matter how “wrong” it is. The world you would create would undo all that an ultimately lead us back into strife and conflict because you don’t seem to be able to mind your own business.

No thanks.

Oh Bill, it would benefit you to read Aristotle on friendship.

You may not realize it, but you are a moral relativist. There is only one Truth. And it is not only worth fighting for, but the only thing worth fighting for. It’s unfortunate that you don’t hold your beliefs in higher esteem, but would rather allow souls to perish than face conflict.

War is evil (if not a crusade). But it is not the greatest evil.

 

[MacQ]

And if a JW came here asking about disposing of Catholic literature in this way, would your answers be the same?

You had every right to throw away the book left on YOUR mailbox unread. You had NO RIGHT to set yourself up as moral arbiter and censor of your neighbors and decide which materials and literature THEY were allowed access to.

If you were my neighbor and I found out that you took something off of my mailbox you’d “have some explaining to do”.

It was VERY disrespectful.

WELL SAID

 

[ToTheHeights]

Oof. This is tough. Do you know it or do you believe it? Knowing isn’t the same as faith. Why would you need faith if you knew with certainty? Don’t confuse a very strong faith with absolute knowledge. I have faith and believe that Catholicism is correct, but I cannot know beyond a shadow of doubt that perhaps some other way (Islam, JW, or whatever) is incorrect.

As such, I wouldn’t have touched the literature myself other than my own mailbox. I probably wouldn’t have cared if someone else took my “freebie” - but I won’t “discard” someone else’s religious materials “in a most unpleasant manner.”

More moral relativism. Understandable, since it is so infectious in our culture. But still wrong.

If everything is right, nothing is right. Truth cannot contradict Truth. Yes, I can prove Islam is incorrect, and Jehovah’s witnesses as well. Their “theology” is absolutely laughable.

This attitude that “well we don’t know for sure, so let’s act like everybody is right” is ridiculous, politically correct BS. Geez people, grow a pair.

 

[MacQ]

We are on a spiritual battlefield, friend. There is only one Truth, and that is Catholicism. We fighting for souls and there is no room for political correctness. Of course we wouldn’t want anyone throwing away Catholic literature, but the two things are not equal. Catholic literature is correct, JW literature is not.

I do find that presumptuous and arrogant, and suspect that the people you are trying to bring to catholic truth would also.
Sorry.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I have faith and believe that Catholicism is correct, but I cannot know beyond a shadow of doubt that perhaps some other way (Islam, JW, or whatever) is incorrect."

To me, this is inconsistant. I understand what you are saying about belief and knowledge but our faith is built upon people who believed unto death. So is their faith. So personally belief comes with the knowledge of the Apostles and God Himself. I believe Jesus and what He said. I know it in my soul, and I bet my eternity on it. I could not wager that or my families souls if I was not certain of the Truths of the CC. And in the Catechism we are told that we have the fullness of Truth. We are told there is only one way to heaven.

This I have knowledge of.

I do not wonder if someone else thinks 2 plus 2 equals five that I may be wrong. That I do not have the knowledge to say, no, it is four!

 

[ToTheHeights]

I do find that presumptuous and arrogant, and suspect that the people you are trying to bring to catholic truth would also.
Sorry.

It is not arrogant to actually believe in something. Not everything can be right. That is just basic logic.

 

[JSSD]

More moral relativism. Understandable, since it is so infectious in our culture. But still wrong.

If everything is right, nothing is right. Truth cannot contradict Truth. Yes, I can prove Islam is incorrect, and Jehovah’s witnesses as well. Their “theology” is absolutely laughable.

This attitude that “well we don’t know for sure, so let’s act like everybody is right” is ridiculous, politically correct BS. Geez people, grow a pair.

Uhh, that is VERY different from what I suggested. $0.02
Moral relativism? Seriously?

I guess I missed the part where Jesus destroyed the materials of other religions, suggested his followers do the same, all in the name of absolute truth.

I’m not saying everything is right. A great example is destroying someone else’s property. I thought there was a commandment on it, as well…

 

[MacQ]

Technically, you took something from your neighbors’ property, so I reckon it was stealing.
Whether or not it qualifies as stealing technically, however, it was WRONG.
It’s not different than taking your neighbor’s garden gnome because you think it’s ugly.
It’s on his property, it’s his. Period. Regardless of what some lawyer says.

But there’s really more to this:
Unless it’s your child, you have no right to censor what other people read.
That’s what is being disappointingly advocated here, in the name of religion.
Leave that to radical fundamentalists. It’s not the Catholic way.

 

[ToTheHeights]

To me, this is inconsistant. I understand what you are saying about belief and knowledge but our faith is built upon people who believed unto death. So is their faith. So personally belief comes with the knowledge of the Apostles and God Himself. I believe Jesus and what He said. I know it in my soul, and I bet my eternity on it. I could not wager that or my families souls if I was not certain of the Truths of the CC. And in the Catechism we are told that we have the fullness of Truth. We are told there is only one way to heaven.

This I have knowledge of.

I do not wonder if someone else thinks 2 plus 2 equals five that I may be wrong. That I do not have the knowledge to say, no, it is four!

Exactly. If one thinks we can’t really know anything, that is called “agnosticism”.

 

[MacQ]

It is not arrogant to actually believe in something. Not everything can be right. That is just basic logic.

Believing in something isn’t what’s at issue here.
Trying to censor what other people read is.

 

[JSSD]

To me, this is inconsistant.

That’s OK, because to me…

I understand what you are saying about belief and knowledge but our faith is built upon people who believed unto death. So is their faith. So personally **belief **comes with the knowledge of the Apostles and God Himself. I believe Jesus and what He said. I know it in my soul, and I bet my eternity on it.

This is. You believe it in your soul. (I do as well)

I could not wager that or my families souls if I was not certain of the Truths of the CC. And in the Catechism we are told that we have the fullness of Truth. We are told there is only one way to heaven.

This I have knowledge of.

I’m fine with this. I can know with certainty what the CC or Bible says.
But, can I know with absolute certainty and demonstrable evidence that the authors were correct? I can believe it…(even in my soul).

 

[ToTheHeights]

Uhh, that is VERY different from what I suggested. $0.02
Moral relativism? Seriously?

I guess I missed the part where Jesus destroyed the materials of other religions, suggested his followers do the same, all in the name of absolute truth.

I’m not saying everything is right. A great example is destroying someone else’s property. I thought there was a commandment on it, as well…

Funny, I recall Jesus flipping over tables in the temple. I think it’s safe to assume some property was destroyed there.

 

[JSSD]

Exactly. If one thinks we can’t really know anything, that is called “agnosticism”.

Anything, or something extremely specific?
I don’t think it is fair to constantly extrapolate to the extreme. $0.02