Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

[Bob_Crowley]

I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord’s Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

I’m glad to have more information to substantiate my belief. I told him that if you were having Christ, the Son of God, The King of Kings, over for a meal you would serve the best beverage you had which would have been a wine, not juice.

You’ll probably find that your friend’s church is a teetotal church (whether all the members abide by the rule is another story), and they bit about grape juice is to fall in line with their teetotal philosophy. That’s the real reason.

It has no basis in fact. It was wine.

As a matter of fact, Christ’s enemies accused him of being a “wine-bibber and glutton”. There’s usually some truth in what someone’s enemies say, so He drank wine.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi Tom,
sorry if i miss guided you with my word i was not really looking for hep and did not mean to infer i was.

I oft ask questions to invoke thought.

I have a Brother Priest who was led astray with drink.

He was having real trouble with the “cup of shared destiny”.

After a very short chat on qqubala the spirit changed his understanding and now drinks from the cup without any problem.

All praise be to YHWH for restoring our Brothers “spiritual man” that the flesh was put in its place.

 

[Periannath]

Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

Not necessarily. People in the time of Christ often preserved wine by turning it into a jelly like spread and added water to it later, thus preserving the fruit of the vine and delaying fermentation. In ancient times “new wine” was often favored to fermented as it was one of the only sweet drinks available (they did not have the plethora of soda pops, juices and sweet drinks we have today). In this case the wine *could *have been more similar to what we could call grape juice.

 

[tomjoans]

Who said anything about drunkeness? That’s one thing I nver understood about fundamental Protestant teetotalers, one drink makes no-one drunk,and a tiny sip from the chalice will have no effect at all.

w

An example…if only one glass of wine is put before a recovering alcoholic, wouldn’t that be a temptation to fall back again? I go back to 1 Cor. 6:9 being drunk one cannot enter the Kindom Of God. I’d still rather be safe than sorry. We never know when we will breathe our last breath then the Judgement. Why not be safe?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Periannath,

This is interesting. Would you kindly supply a reference. Let me tell you why I ask…

Not necessarily. People in the time of Christ often preserved wine by turning it into a jelly like spread and added water to it later, thus preserving the fruit of the vine and delaying fermentation. In ancient times “new wine” was often favored to fermented as it was one of the only sweet drinks available (they did not have the plethora of soda pops, juices and sweet drinks we have today). In this case the wine *could *have been more similar to what we could call grape juice.

My understanding is that the Last Supper was actually the last Seder (Jewish celebration meal of Passover) that Jesus celebrated with His friends - the Apostles. Here is a link you may be interested in: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder Please note: not only is wine required to be used but 4 cups of it. Given that there was no refrigeration at the time (other then snow), and the only other way to preserve food that I am aware of was salting the food. This of course could not be done with grapes once picked. The idea of grape jelly or grape juice just does not seem to come up to my knowledge in 1st Century Judea. I do not think it really made its appearance before Thomas Welch tried to make a product for the Methodist church. (here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch)

It was previously mentioned by one of the posters that Christ was criticized as a “…drunkard and a glutton…” (Matthew 11:19 & Luke 7:34). Admittedly, there is no evidence of Him being called a grape juice drinker and grape jelly eater… But, seriously, as much as quoting the Pharisees is annoying - they probably got the part right about Christ, unlike John the Baptist who they criticized from the other direction, drinking wine and eating food (as opposed to fasting as the Pharisees did).

In my opinion, the hard evidence supports the idea that Christ drank wine. There is no evidence - and, you really can not call the criticism of the Jews as evidence - that Christ became drunk. The idea here is one for all of us - that something can be used but not abused.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tomjoans

I am really having a problem with how to appropriately apply your example…

An example…if only one glass of wine is put before a recovering alcoholic, wouldn’t that be a temptation to fall back again? I go back to 1 Cor. 6:9 being drunk one cannot enter the Kindom Of God. I’d still rather be safe than sorry. We never know when we will breathe our last breath then the Judgement. Why not be safe?

An alcoholic, by definition, is someone addicted to alcohol. As a Registered Nurse, having worked with chemically addicted patients, I can tell you that there is no recorded case of anyone having become addicted by having one glass of wine.

Now, this same one glass of wine could easily be the start - or, make that re-start, of an alcoholic’s plunge into continued drug abuse after having been sober for any length of time (be that minutes or decades!) But, if your argument is '…better safe then sorry…" what about the obvious potential for a recovering glutton? Are you not going to eat because of the potential for abuse here? If so, about the most you can hang onto that thought is two weeks before simply starving to death.

Gluttony is bad - and why there is no law about ‘driving while eating’ like there is against ‘drunk driving’ the effects can be rather devestating on the human body. So, what is one to do. We do not need to drink alcohol - but, we do need to eat food.

In my opinion, the problem is really confusing the use of something with the abuse of that thing. While one is perfectly free to totally abstain from alcohol as a personal decision - it is a neutral act: neither morally positive or negative. It really is no more praise worthy then abstaining from cake and ice cream. This would be an example of a personal choice. But, I still get the impression that this is sort of an ‘insurance policy’ to get to heaven - and, it really isn’t. The basis for the moral life is to do good and avoid evil - not avoid a good and avoid evil … you have to do something that is good.

God bless

 

[Bill_Pick]

If a person is a alcoholic and a Cathloic just leav the wine alpon and just have the bread. case close and the prosts, can have their grape juice

 

[tomjoans]

Heavens above, of course Jesus drank wine. Has anyone been to a party where people drank pot after pot of grape juice? Of course not. And grape juice always tastes the same, whereas there are different types and qualities of wine. Remember how it was said that when Jesus changed water into wine at Cana, the steward remarked that “the best wine was kept until now?” I am surprised that anyone would ask such a question. As was remarked in a previous post, the whole argument over wine versus grape juice would never have been brought up if it were not for the fundamentalist movement, as well as other Protestant denominations who were against alcohol use in any form. Having been brought up in the Methodist Church, I observed that when we had communion (very infrequently, maybe four times a year) grape juice was always used. It felt incomplete. When I became Catholic I truly began to appreciate what I had been missing–the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist under the species of bread and wine, as He had intended. Peace be with you.

You ask a question … if anyone has been to a party where people drank pot after pot of grape juice, and you said, of course not. Well, what would they drink pot after pot of wine or acohol or could they drink soft drinks, ice tea or leomonade? Suppose we took our last breath at that party and we were drunk … the Word of God in 1 Cor. 1:6 says we could not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Word of God has a lot to say about getting drunk.
We serve a Holy God and He wants us to be Holy, so I still would rather be safe than sorry, but that’s just my conviction.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Joan,

Stick with your conviction not to drink alcohol - I think this is just fine.

I really think all of the posters would agree that being drunk is not what God wants for us.

I also really think that there is a real difference between drinking in moderation and being out of control so that one does become drunk. Drinking pot after pot of anything would indicate to me that someone is simply out of control… and this is not the best way to express our humanity. Ever notice when people are out of control on any appetite, they are compared to an animal: drinks like a fish, eats like a pit, mad as a bull, sleeps like a bear, etc. ? We are reduced to the level of beasts because we have allowed our passions to blind our humanity.

You ask a question … if anyone has been to a party where people drank pot after pot of grape juice, and you said, of course not. Well, what would they drink pot after pot of wine or acohol or could they drink soft drinks, ice tea or leomonade? Suppose we took our last breath at that party and we were drunk … the Word of God in 1 Cor. 1:6 says we could not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Word of God has a lot to say about getting drunk.
We serve a Holy God and He wants us to be Holy, so I still would rather be safe than sorry, but that’s just my conviction.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

God bless

 

[Syele]

I think the focus here is wrong.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with abstaining from alcohol.

The problem comes with changing what Jesus said to do in Communion. Whatever “noble” reason you have, its still not doing it like Jesus commanded to switch to some other drink.

Jesus said to use Wine. Since when is it ok to say “Well, I think I have a better idea than Jesus!”??

For those for using Grape Juice consider this:
Is it ok to disobey God if you think you have a good reason?
Is it ok to disobey God cause you don’t like what he commands?
Is it ok to disregard Jesus commands because “people have been doing that for 40-50 years”?
Is it ok to do half of what God tells you and make the other half sort of like what He said to do?

WHY, do you think wine was chosen in the first place?

When I used Grape juice it was cause my church always had done it that way. Not cause I had any idea about it. When I asked Why wine? I was told it is red, symbolizing Jesus’ blood. Why grape juice? they said, a substitute for wine cause its also from grapes but non alcoholic. Somewhat unsatisfying answers from people who usually give in depth answers to my questions including proof texts. Then years later i asked “Why are we using WHITE Grape Juice??” I’m told, it reduces stains on the carpet. WHAT?!?

Guess what? There is much more to the symbolism of Wine in communion than just the color and the fruit it came from. Even with all the debates about what happens during Holy Communion the symbolism is still there too, whatever you might believe happens or you believe doesn’t happen. And God didn’t pick wine cause there happened to be some laying around. Some of the symbolism has specific reasons involving fermentation.

I don’t think at judgment I want to tell Him that I disobeyed Him so I could have carpet with no stains (sheesh don’t spill it!) or because someone in the church might be on a strict no wine medication(they can abstain from that part.)

P.S. I no longer attend that church.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Why is it when this comes up the prostestants alway talk about getting drunk , NO one said Jesus got drunk Its was He having wine or grape juice and Yes He was having wine
Lets see what the Bible has to say Back · Home · Next

Matt. 26:27,29; Mark 14:23,25; Luke 22:17-18; 1 Cor. 11:25-27 - Jesus instituted the Eucharist using wine and commanded us to “do this in remembrance of me.” We know that Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Jewish seder meal, which required the use of wine. Yet some Protestant churches forbid drinking wine. Such a prohibition is not based on the Scriptures.

Luke 7:33-34 - God the Son drank wine and was accused of being a drunk. Are those Protestant churches that forbid the drinking of wine doing the same?

John 2:1-11 - Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine which was drunk at the wedding at Cana. Wine is a symbol of the life of the Church, in both the Eucharist and, here, the sanctification of the sacrament of marriage. Verse 10 also indicates that the people drank enough wine at the feast to the point that they might not have recognized good wine from bad wine. Yet Jesus creates for them more wine to drink.

1 Tim. 5:23 - Paul tells Timothy to drink not just water, but a little wine for the sake of his stomach and frequent ailments. If Paul under divine inspiration encourages the drinking of wine, why do some Protestant churches prohibit it?

Gen. 14:18 - Melchizedek offers a bread and wine sacrifice, and Jesus is the Priest in the same manner. Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17.

Gen. 27:25 - Isaac brought Jacob wine, and he drank, with God’s favor.

Neh. 8:10 - Nehemiah commands the faithful to drink sweet wine to celebrate the Lord and His holy day.

Psalm 104:15 - the Psalmist writes that “wine gladdens the heart of a man.” God gave us the fruit of the vine to enjoy.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - “drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do.”

Wisdom 2:7 - “Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes!”

Sir. 31:25-28 - “Wine is like life if drunk in moderation.” God created wine to make us glad, so we rejoice in heart, and have gladness of soul.

Sir. 40:20 - “Wine gladdens the heart.”

Isaiah 25:6 - God will provide a feast of rich foods and choice wines.

Amos 9:14 - God declares that His people shall plant their vineyards and drink their wine.

Zech. 10:7 - God says that when He saves His people, their hearts shall be glad as with wine.

2 Mac. 15:39 - this verse also describes the pleasure of drinking wine. The point is that all God made is good, and we are called to enjoy His good gifts, including drinking wine, as long as we do so in moderation. And while we drink in moderation, the miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast at Cana suggests that we can have a second glass!

It sound like it said it is okay to have a little wine
Scripture Catholic

 

[hosemonkey]

Actually, fermentation can start on fruit - grpaes or anythibng else - before it has been picked. One only has to watch the occasional bird that has eaten over ripe fruit in the late summer/fall.

They fly somewhat like drunken sailors walk.

I take great exception to the term “Drunken Sailors.” Firstly, Sailors are never “drunken,” they merely become “merry.” And if they should become *drunken, they never walk crookedly, and if they do walk crookedly,*they never fall down. And if they do fall down, it is not because they are drunken, but because of the poor condition of the sidewalk, or that they simply need to rest for a brief time. Please be more careful in future.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hosemonkey,

Priceless…

I take great exception to the term “Drunken Sailors.” Firstly, Sailors are never “drunken,” they merely become “merry.” And if they should become *drunken, they never walk crookedly, and if they do walk crookedly,*they never fall down. And if they do fall down, it is not because they are drunken, but because of the poor condition of the sidewalk, or that they simply need to rest for a brief time. Please be more careful in future.

The number of dangerous sidewalks out there is … staggering!

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Syele,

These are excellent obsservatons - thanks for sharing them! The idea about staining the carpet is pretty outrageous!

I think the focus here is wrong.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with abstaining from alcohol.

The problem comes with changing what Jesus said to do in Communion. Whatever “noble” reason you have, its still not doing it like Jesus commanded to switch to some other drink.

Jesus said to use Wine. Since when is it ok to say “Well, I think I have a better idea than Jesus!”??

For those for using Grape Juice consider this:
Is it ok to disobey God if you think you have a good reason?
Is it ok to disobey God cause you don’t like what he commands?
Is it ok to disregard Jesus commands because “people have been doing that for 40-50 years”?
Is it ok to do half of what God tells you and make the other half sort of like what He said to do?

WHY, do you think wine was chosen in the first place?

When I used Grape juice it was cause my church always had done it that way. Not cause I had any idea about it. When I asked Why wine? I was told it is red, symbolizing Jesus’ blood. Why grape juice? they said, a substitute for wine cause its also from grapes but non alcoholic. Somewhat unsatisfying answers from people who usually give in depth answers to my questions including proof texts. Then years later i asked “Why are we using WHITE Grape Juice??” I’m told, it reduces stains on the carpet. WHAT?!?

Guess what? There is much more to the symbolism of Wine in communion than just the color and the fruit it came from. Even with all the debates about what happens during Holy Communion the symbolism is still there too, whatever you might believe happens or you believe doesn’t happen. And God didn’t pick wine cause there happened to be some laying around. Some of the symbolism has specific reasons involving fermentation.

I don’t think at judgment I want to tell Him that I disobeyed Him so I could have carpet with no stains (sheesh don’t spill it!) or because someone in the church might be on a strict no wine medication(they can abstain from that part.)

P.S. I no longer attend that church.

God bless

 

[EspositoJoe]

Dear Peri:

With all due respect, I double-checked with a business partner who holds a Ph.D. in microbiology from Purdue. Non-alcoholic grape juice was a scientific impossibility until the early 20th Century, when Welch’s chemists developed the process as a business strategy in response to prohibition.

In Liberty,

Joe

People in the time of Christ often preserved wine by turning it into a jelly like spread and added water to it later, thus preserving the fruit of the vine and delaying fermentation. In this case the wine *could *have been more similar to what we could call grape juice.

 

[pipper]

An example…if only one glass of wine is put before a recovering alcoholic, wouldn’t that be a temptation to fall back again? I go back to 1 Cor. 6:9 being drunk one cannot enter the Kindom Of God. I’d still rather be safe than sorry. We never know when we will breathe our last breath then the Judgement. Why not be safe?

Well tomjoans not everyone is an alcholic and I sure am not. The only “drinking” I do is a tiny sip of the blood of Christ in Holy Communion. I cannot drink for I am a stroke patient who takes about 15 pills a day. Even before the stroke I would only have one drink and perhaps twice a month, but that is my decision to make and not the majority of fundamental Christians who decided to make my choices for me in voting my county “dry”.

To follow your analogy to it’s logical end, we would all have to starve to death in order to not tempt those who may have food addictions, or be at risk for obesity or heart disease. Do you do that?

 

[fultonfish]

The BEST wine.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, EspositoJoe,

Cheers!

Dear Peri:

With all due respect, I double-checked with a business partner who holds a Ph.D. in microbiology from Purdue. Non-alcoholic grape juice was a scientific impossibility until the early 20th Century, when Welch’s chemists developed the process as a business strategy in response to prohibition.

In Liberty,

Joe

God bless

 

[Steven_John]

I have read some posts that imply using juice is disobedient.
While it is not the same as using wine please consider.

Do you go the upper room do you follow the Jewish tradition of how to clean the vessels etc.

No that taking it too far maybe, but if you objective is to copy the act how far wouldn’t you go.

The clincher for me is those words “do this in memory of me”

Did he mean imitate me in this meal or did he mean do what i am symbolising in this meal.

That is he offered it all up for his brothers now do that in his memory and be troubled not over wine and juice to be right with My Father.

You have been made right by this offering by My Brother no effort on your part.

But faith without works is dead, we know rituals do not count as works only love is the works we want to do in his memory.

For any hung up on the wine, juice issue you may grow by learning what our for fathers considered the implication of sharing bread and drinking from the same cup.

This is the reflection in the last supper act.

If you learn these we can start another thread should we drink from the same cup, the lesson from this will be more relevant to the works of love.

I offer this post not to undermine or diminish what really happens in the Qqubala of the Catholic Eucharist it has been bound here so is of truth,
but the words meaning My Brother Yahooshua (pbwh) spake into your life that moment are life giving, please live them in truth for i love you so much.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Steven John,

There is a form of argumentation identified as: reductio ad absurdum where things are simply reduced to an absurd level in an effort to disprove the issue under discussion. I must admit that you did not ask that we also wear robes and sandals, men grow beards and in all ways revert to living like 1st Century followers of Christ.

I have read some posts that imply using juice is disobedient.
While it is not the same as using wine please consider.

Do you go the upper room do you follow the Jewish tradition of how to clean the vessels etc.

No that taking it too far maybe, but if you objective is to copy the act how far wouldn’t you go.

The clincher for me is those words “do this in memory of me”

Did he mean imitate me in this meal or did he mean do what i am symbolising in this meal. .

I think this is where an immediate clarification needs to be provided. In John 6, Christ was quite clear that eating His Flesh is the only way we would have life in us - not to do this means we have no life. Question His meaning? Well, that only happened in the 16th Century. The Jews who heard Christ’s words understood - and then rejected Him strictly because of what He commanded of them. It was at the Last Supper that Christ identified how this was to take place. From 33AD to this very day, Christ’s words of consecration have been used as the central element of the Catholic Mass.

That is he offered it all up for his brothers now do that in his memory and be troubled not over wine and juice to be right with My Father.

You know, in the Divine Plan there are some interesting elements that God has provided for us. We use wine and unlevened bread - recall, Christ was celebrating His last Passover with His friends. It is not incidental - but, required by God. But, do not stop there, do you realize that water (not wine, milk, saliva or any other liquid) must be used for the ordinary administration of Baptism. Those other liquids just do not fulfill the requirement.

////////////////

But faith without works is dead, we know rituals do not count as works only love is the works we want to do in his memory.

For any hung up on the wine, juice issue you may grow by learning what our for fathers considered the implication of sharing bread and drinking from the same cup.

This is the reflection in the last supper act.

Maybe to equate Christ’s on-going giving of Himself as a ritual is to totally miss the significance of what very plain and clear words are before you in your own Bible. It is suggested that you take some time out and reflect on this. In the last analysis Christ tells us to at least believe the miracles he has worked in front of everyone if you do not believe His words. Something else to reflect on.

If you learn these we can start another thread should we drink from the same cup, the lesson from this will be more relevant to the works of love.

I offer this post not to undermine or diminish what really happens in the Qqubala of the Catholic Eucharist it has been bound here so is of truth,
but the words meaning My Brother Yahooshua (pbwh) spake into your life that moment are life giving, please live them in truth for i love you so much.

Steven, if you think your musings can undermine or dimiish the Eucharist - please, move away from this illusion. Christ’s words offer life - if this is what you truly aspire to.

God bless