Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

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Guyonthestreet said:
We Know.

The fact that it is your first post is irrelevant. You plagiarized someone elses work and it’s wrong and lacks integrity.

However, why that is even less of an excuse is on the 28th August, 9 months later, you started this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=371295

which follows the same formula of a direct cut and paste from another copyrighted source, as I and others pointed out to you on that thread too. That was only a few days ago Bill.

So what’s the excuse for doing it nine months later, when there are, in the intervening times, numerous other examples of you doing exactly the same thing, and being corrected by other posters?

:confused:

I’m not mad at all. I’m simply requesting that when you copy another persons work, you credit them and stop passing off other peoples work as though it were your own. Simple. It takes no effort whatsoever to do but it would show intergity on your part.

No idea why your shouting Bill. No it’s not the first copy and it wont be the last, but at least why dont you do the right thing and give credit where credit is due and not worry about others plagiarizing. That’s their issue, not yours. You do the right thing eh?

In relation to the ‘‘other’’ I chose only to communicate with you via the online public board, so:

Point one - Thank you for your remark which I will take as a compliment - I’d rather be a good protestant than a bad catholic

Point two - Gentle correction delivered in charity, not bashing

Point three - I believe The Word of God and the historical narratives on the matter.

God Bless.
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I came on thes froums in NOV. and I posted this in DEC. I DID NOT READ THE RUELS WHEN I POST THIS,I,m sorry get a life

PS The other was just a paragaph,was that also wrong
 
garth said:
I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. .
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And the main flaw in your friends argument is that the Passover is in early spring, there were no fresh grapes to make new wine with.

The grapes are harvested in late summer, fall or very early winter.

Any grape juice left over from then, without pasturization (ala Welch) would either be wine or vinegar by Passover.
 
LegoGE1947 said:
How do grape juice bottlers keep the fermentation process from happening? Just curious.
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A form of Pastureization. That was the process that Welch developed. Interestingly enough, he did it so his Protestant congregation could have a non-alcoholic ‘wine’ for their services.
 
kalt said:
I know a few alcoholics who were drawn to these religions when they stopped drinking. It seems that they needed a religion that was strict on drinking–they needed the support of an institution that didn’t allow any drinking, since the rest of the world celebrates just about everything with a drink. Actually, everyone I know who has joined one of these strict churches had problems - drinking, drugs, and gambling. I know that there are members who didn’t have problems, but danged if I’ve met them. 😉

It makes you wonder, though, if this is what is drawing them to the religion - not the theology, but the social constraints. They need the authority of the institution telling them not to party at all. No gambling at all. No drinking at all.

If it’s working for them…👍
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That is true, but I know there are many more alcoholics amoung the fundamentalist who make alcohol taboo and therefore very exciting to thier children. It can be very exciting to break the social rules one is raised on amoung rebellious adolescents.

Jewish people who make wine holy and sanctify wine with prayer, have far fewer alcoholics. After all the moderate drinking of wine is something they grow up with from early life where watered wine is served at the dinner table and is considered just a normal everyday part of life. And still there are very few Jewish alcoholics. They even have a “rule” for Purim where one is supposed to get so snockered that they can’t tell the difference between “bless Haman, and curse Mordechai”.
 
Brendan said:
And the main flaw in your friends argument is that the Passover is in early spring, there were no fresh grapes to make new wine with.

The grapes are harvested in late summer, fall or very early winter.

Any grape juice left over from then, without pasturization (ala Welch) would either be wine or vinegar by Passover.
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The smell of grape wine tends to make me want to hurl. It smells like something died. In fact the only way I can take the Eucharist is by taking only the host and giving the chalice a WIDE berth.:eek:
 
Bill_Pick said:
Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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Kudos! This is a great, cogent and clear explanation. Thank you
 
Guyonthestreet said:
We Know.

The fact that it is your first post is irrelevant. You plagiarized someone elses work and it’s wrong and lacks integrity.

However, why that is even less of an excuse is on the 28th August, 9 months later, you started this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=371295

which follows the same formula of a direct cut and paste from another copyrighted source, as I and others pointed out to you on that thread too. That was only a few days ago Bill.

So what’s the excuse for doing it nine months later, when there are, in the intervening times, numerous other examples of you doing exactly the same thing, and being corrected by other posters?

:confused:

I’m not mad at all. I’m simply requesting that when you copy another persons work, you credit them and stop passing off other peoples work as though it were your own. Simple. It takes no effort whatsoever to do but it would show intergity on your part.

No idea why your shouting Bill. No it’s not the first copy and it wont be the last, but at least why dont you do the right thing and give credit where credit is due and not worry about others plagiarizing. That’s their issue, not yours. You do the right thing eh?

In relation to the ‘‘other’’ I chose only to communicate with you via the online public board, so:

Point one - Thank you for your remark which I will take as a compliment - I’d rather be a good protestant than a bad catholic

Point two - Gentle correction delivered in charity, not bashing

Point three - I believe The Word of God and the historical narratives on the matter.

God Bless.
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🍿
 
Come on guys, stop flooding the thread with your side-tracking nonsense so you can kill it.

Some of us are interested in the ORIGINAL subject, if y’all aren’t then please go away and let us serious people continue our discussion…please.
 
New wine is more bubbly than champagne, but has less alchohol. It is somewhat like beer, but warm like blood.
 
Isn’t new wine, wine that has just finished fermenting? Like Beaujalais Noveau (new Beaujalais), it is definatly fermented wine and every year the wine lovers wait it’s release anxiously.

BN is fruity and somewhat bubbly.
 
pipper said:
Isn’t new wine, wine that has just finished fermenting? Like Beaujalais Noveau (new Beaujalais), it is definatly fermented wine and every year the wine lovers wait it’s release anxiously.

BN is fruity and somewhat bubbly.
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That would be a nice wine for passover. Does it have any alchohol additives?
 
Not that I know of, just the alcohol from natural fermentation. I don’t think it is kashruth though. Are you Jewish?
 
OK, fine by me. I just don’t know exactly what a theosopher is. Does it have anything to do with Maddam Blavatski (sorry for the terrible spelling), or is it metaphysical?
 
I’ve always reasoned that if it was grape juice people drank back then instead of wine, there wouldn’t be any warnings of drunkenness. That and when Jesus was thanked for saving the best for last, well, I don’t think Grape Juice would have qualified for the “best stuff.”

But I’ll never figure out why my Baptist brothers and sisters use grape juice instead of wine. If you are going to replace the wine, let’s just go all out and do PBJ sandwiches and a glass of ice cold milk instead.
 
pipper said:
OK, fine by me. I just don’t know exactly what a theosopher is. Does it have anything to do with Maddam Blavatski (sorry for the terrible spelling), or is it metaphysical?
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Well, I belong to a theosophical group know as the United Lodge of Theosophists. But I haven’t attended a meeting in more that fifteen years. To become a member you simply sign a pledge of sympathy with the objectives of the lodge. There are no obligations for membership, no dues, no dogmas, etc…

The lodge studies the writings of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, and some of her associates. My interest might be considered a side issue by the lodge. I have explored sacred geometry and its relation to Jewish mysticism.
 
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