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RebeccaJ
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haha hosemonkey! There is something wrong with the sidewalks in Las Vegas, that is certain.
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EasterJoy
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"“To what shall I compare this generation? It is like children who sit in marketplaces and call to one another, ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance, we sang a dirge but you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they said, ‘He is possessed by a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said, ‘Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is vindicated by her works.” Matt. 11:16-19
Of course, the Lord was speaking of drinking wine. The passage doesn’t even make sense, if he was talking about grape juice.
This discussion is about the Mass, a sacrament of the Roman Catholic Church. We do count litugy as a “work of the people” and our worship as part of what we, in response to the demands of justice, owe to our Creator and God. The rubrics are laid down by the successors of the Apostles, not by individual lay or even priestly interpretations of what historically happened at the Last Supper.
We don’t dictate what other religions interpret what “do this in memory of me” means when they read the Holy Scriptures of the Catholic Church. After all, we read the Torah as our own Sacred Scriptures in our own way, and do not ask the Jews for permission about how we do that.
We do reserve the right to determine what Scripture and Tradition means in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Wine, not grape juice, is the proper matter for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
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tomjoans
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I never said that I was using that as sort of an “insurance policy” to get to heaven, as I know it won’t, but drunkeness will not enter the Kindom of God is what God says. And if you think that drinking wine is good, that’s up to you, but i’ve been to many Fairs and places where people get drunk on alcohol and it would be sad if that would keep them from entering the Kingdom of God. Not drinking wine is not going to get us into heaven, but drinking too much of it will keep us out. But that just my conviction.Hi, Tomjoans
I am really having a problem with how to appropriately apply your example…
An alcoholic, by definition, is someone addicted to alcohol. As a Registered Nurse, having worked with chemically addicted patients, I can tell you that there is no recorded case of anyone having become addicted by having one glass of wine.
Now, this same one glass of wine could easily be the start - or, make that re-start, of an alcoholic’s plunge into continued drug abuse after having been sober for any length of time (be that minutes or decades!) But, if your argument is '…better safe then sorry…" what about the obvious potential for a recovering glutton? Are you not going to eat because of the potential for abuse here? If so, about the most you can hang onto that thought is two weeks before simply starving to death.
Gluttony is bad - and why there is no law about ‘driving while eating’ like there is against ‘drunk driving’ the effects can be rather devestating on the human body. So, what is one to do. We do not need to drink alcohol - but, we do need to eat food.
In my opinion, the problem is really confusing the use of something with the abuse of that thing. While one is perfectly free to totally abstain from alcohol as a personal decision - it is a neutral act: neither morally positive or negative. It really is no more praise worthy then abstaining from cake and ice cream. This would be an example of a personal choice. But, I still get the impression that this is sort of an ‘insurance policy’ to get to heaven - and, it really isn’t. The basis for the moral life is to do good and avoid evil - not avoid a good and avoid evil … you have to do something that is good.
God bless
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans,(Joan)
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Bill_Pick
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But the Bible tells a little wine is good for us dont you remember Sola Scriptura (Bible alone)
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Periannath
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Nothing seems to indicate to me that because this was a sedar, then it must be wine. I am surprised you view the last supper as a sedar since this is typically a protestant view (though there is nothing wrong with that). I will have to look up the sources. (I read them in a book not online). For further support however, and to my surprise, the Assyrian Church of the East does, and has, always used a non-alcoholic wine or grape juice. Their “schism” goes back to the second century A.D. and the Pope ( I believe it was John Paul II) has noted that this is a valid Eucharist. You can notice this, too, in most Catholic mass books in directions for communion for non-Catholics, Assyrians are permitted to the table though asked to respect the cannon law of their own church. All of this suggests a tradition of non-alcoholic wine that goes much farther back then welch or protestantism.Hi, Periannath,
This is interesting. Would you kindly supply a reference. Let me tell you why I ask…
My understanding is that the Last Supper was actually the last Seder (Jewish celebration meal of Passover) that Jesus celebrated with His friends - the Apostles. Here is a link you may be interested in: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder Please note: not only is wine required to be used but 4 cups of it. Given that there was no refrigeration at the time (other then snow), and the only other way to preserve food that I am aware of was salting the food. This of course could not be done with grapes once picked. The idea of grape jelly or grape juice just does not seem to come up to my knowledge in 1st Century Judea. I do not think it really made its appearance before Thomas Welch tried to make a product for the Methodist church. (here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch)
It was previously mentioned by one of the posters that Christ was criticized as a “…drunkard and a glutton…” (Matthew 11:19 & Luke 7:34). Admittedly, there is no evidence of Him being called a grape juice drinker and grape jelly eater…But, seriously, as much as quoting the Pharisees is annoying - they probably got the part right about Christ, unlike John the Baptist who they criticized from the other direction, drinking wine and eating food (as opposed to fasting as the Pharisees did).
In my opinion, the hard evidence supports the idea that Christ drank wine. There is no evidence - and, you really can not call the criticism of the Jews as evidence - that Christ became drunk. The idea here is one for all of us - that something can be used but not abused.
God bless
Also, I have not read any good explanation on why protestants choose non-alcoholic wine theologically. From a Pentecostal background, at least, I can speak some. Grape juice is used because it is unfermented, like the unfermented unleavened bread this “new wine” is symbolic of the new covenant in which God has called his people to be holy and apart from corruption of this world, which is often visualized as yeast or fermentation in the Bible. Furthermore, fermentation is a form of decay, tied to the curse and “unfermented” points to the reality that through Jesus’ death and resurrection the power of the curse is broken. In inaugurating the Kingdom of God Jesus points us to the kingdom established in the new creation (new birth, new heavens, new earth…). I believe the symbolism is nice, I don’t know, however, how I personally stand on it theolgoically.
God’s peace and blessing.
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EasterJoy
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Temperance is required with most good things, and even with (perhaps especially with) the necessary ones: food, sleep, work, sex, and so on. (Yes, sex, too. Some people have a vocation that includes a duty to engage in sexual relations, even if not all do.)
Having said that, except for the priests and bishops, any Catholic could go a lifetime without alcohol. This is OK. It is just wrong to teach that alcohol is sinful in and of itself, as that is false.
It is also false that Jesus did not drink or approve of the drinking of wine. His first miracle involved turning water into wine for a crowd in which everybody has presumably already had some…and it was a LOT of water. The Last Supper took place in early spring, as Passover always does, and so non-alcoholic grape juice would simply not have been available. They had wine.
There is also no way that anybody who called someone possessed when he simply fasted and was a teetotaller would call someone a drunkard because he sipped a teeny amount once in awhile. It takes exceptional mental gymnastics to even consider that as a possibility.
Still, it is also clear that Jesus was no more a drunkard than St. John the Baptist was possessed by demons. Even though culpability can be mitigated by circumstance, even occasional drunkenness is an immoral choice. As Jesus never sinned, it can be taken as a fact that Jesus never abused alcohol, either.
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EasterJoy
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Viewing temperance as an essential virtue is older than Chritianity itself–alcoholism is rare among Orthodox Jews, even today–but prohibitionistic attitudes among Protestants are much, much more recent. It is something that started within the last 200 years or so, and is much more widespread in the US than in Europe.
You might check out books on the subject, such as “Drinking With Calvin and Luther!: A History of Alcohol in the Church” by Jim West, among others.
amazon.com/Drinking-Calvin-Luther-History-Alcohol/dp/0970032609
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Zundrah
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Hey listen, I just realised something! If Jeus drank wine as he handed out the last supper along with unleavened bread, then that means… he consumed yeast!
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Eucharisted
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No, He consumed Himself. He changed the bread and wine into Himself. You gotta read the Last Supper in light of John 6.
I actually made commentary on John 6 here.
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Zundrah
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Damn you, you ruined my fun!
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Eucharisted
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Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! lolDamn you, you ruined my fun!
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Steven_John
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Steven_John
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Please quote me where i said grape juce???
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tomjoans
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Periannath
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What I had to say had nothing to do with abstinence from alcohol. I agree that is a more recent development and maybe an extra-biblical one too. I am for temperance in regards to drinking. The issue of communion, at least in my opinion, is unrelated.
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ML561
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Peace be with you. I think it is clear that Jesus drank wine. Some of the posters here are obviously teetotalers. If they wish to join the Catholic Church, they are under no obligation to drink wine…if that is what is bothersome. They may receive the Eucharist under the species of bread alone. However, it is required of the priest during the Mass to consecrate wine…grape juice will not do. Whether or not a communicant receives under one or both species is up to the individual. Receiving under the species of bread alone is just as valid as receiving under both species.
I am getting the impression that some posters are simply against wine and are arguing against it because they themselves are opposed to alcohol. A sip of the Blood of Christ at communion does not make anyone a drunkard. It is a sacrament.
The Catholic Church is not opposed to drinking alcohol, provided it is done in moderation. If someone feels that they cannot or should not drink alcohol, that is up to them and let their conscience be their guide. Anyone who thinks they may have a problem with drinking should consult a priest or a counselor. But in summary, it is my opinion that arguing over wine vs. grape juice is really a non-issue. The Church has made its position clear that only wine is to be consecrated as the Blood of Christ and that this is what Jesus intended when He instituted the Eucharist. Peace be with you.
I am getting the impression that some posters are simply against wine and are arguing against it because they themselves are opposed to alcohol. A sip of the Blood of Christ at communion does not make anyone a drunkard. It is a sacrament.
The Catholic Church is not opposed to drinking alcohol, provided it is done in moderation. If someone feels that they cannot or should not drink alcohol, that is up to them and let their conscience be their guide. Anyone who thinks they may have a problem with drinking should consult a priest or a counselor. But in summary, it is my opinion that arguing over wine vs. grape juice is really a non-issue. The Church has made its position clear that only wine is to be consecrated as the Blood of Christ and that this is what Jesus intended when He instituted the Eucharist. Peace be with you.
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kalt
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I could be wrong, but I think they need a church that tells them that alcohol is evil. If not, they feel they will be tempted to start drinking again. They seem to need God (as told to them by their pastors) to say that alcohol is prohibited. If it comes from God, they feel that they have a higher reason to “just say no”. In reality, of course, they have all the authority they need to just say no. If they say, no, it’s no. It’s too bad that more people don’t understand that very simple point - that every human being has the ultimate authority to just say no.
This is how it is with the people I know who’ve joined “dry” churches. They need the church to back them up in just saying no. They tell others that they are Christians now and so don’t drink at all. They know that few people would ever ask someone to put their religion aside. (I’ve never had anyone ask me to eat meat on Friday during Lent. In fact, Jewish people who’ve had parties for kids on Friday in Lent ordered cheese pizzas for the Catholic kids.
) So, if not drinking is part of their religion…If it works for them.
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tqualey
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tqualey
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Hi, Periannath,
I think you have made an excellent observation.
Cheers!
God bless
I think you have made an excellent observation.
As I recall, there were a couple of posters who associated any drining with getting drunk - and this is why Christ did not drink… or… something along those lines. Personally, with the First Miracle of turning water into wine - I think Christ made a very strong statement about there being nothing intrinisically evil with the moderate use alcohol. Being drunk has always been condemned. For those able to make the distinction between the use and the abuse of alcohol - or any other item in this world - more blessings on you!
Cheers!
God bless
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Bill_Pick
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Lets get this right Drindkng a little wine is NOT evil geting drunk is evil. Lets get it Read look and see what you Bible tells you,do you believe the words of PaulI could be wrong, but I think they need a church that tells them that alcohol is evil. If not, they feel they will be tempted to start drinking again. They seem to need God (as told to them by their pastors) to say that alcohol is prohibited. If it comes from God, they feel that they have a higher reason to “just say no”. In reality, of course, they have all the authority they need to just say no. If they say, no, it’s no. It’s too bad that more people don’t understand that very simple point - that every human being has the ultimate authority to just say no.
This is how it is with the people I know who’ve joined “dry” churches. They need the church to back them up in just saying no. They tell others that they are Christians now and so don’t drink at all. They know that few people would ever ask someone to put their religion aside. (I’ve never had anyone ask me to eat meat on Friday during Lent. In fact, Jewish people who’ve had parties for kids on Friday in Lent ordered cheese pizzas for the Catholic kids.
If it works for them.
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