Did Jesus have brothers and sisters?

[LittleSoldier]

Jesus giving the care of His mother over to John from the cross is good evidence that He was an only child. This is also evident in Jesus interaction with His Brethern. They treat Jesus as a younger than them. Since Jesus is the First Born, they could only be children of another mother.

When a child was named the first-born (my understanding is that the first-born male was consecrated in some way) was it always referring to the first-born of the mother or did it also refer to the first-born of the mother along with the father? If Jesus was the first-born of Joseph that would mean there were absolutely no siblings because there would have already been a first-born and so it wouldn’t make sense to call Jesus the first-born - unless Joseph had been married previously and had children and the first-born of those children existed before Jesus was born and was called the first-born - the addition of a second wife complicates things.

I guess this all goes into Jewish Law, which is a subject I know little about except that the child of a Jewish woman is considered Jewish. My nephew’s father is Jewish but his mother is not. And so my nephew is not Jewish (of course he could choose to be Jewish but he has not).

:whacky:

 

[Anna_Scott]

They were married before the birth of Jesus. Look at the time line.

As soon as the Angel spoke to Mary, she went to visit Elizabeth:
Luke 1:
34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” **And the angel departed from her.

39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, 40 and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.**

Mary stayed with Elizabeth 3 months:
Luke 1:
56 And Mary remained with her about three months and returned to her home.

Scripture doesn’t tell us exactly when Mary told Joseph she was pregnant.

We do know that when Mary and Joseph started the trip to Bethlehem, they were still betrothed:
Luke 2:
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. 6 And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

They would have married either at some point during the trip or after they arrived in Bethlehem, but before the birth of Jesus:
Matthew 1:
24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Peace,
Anna

OK. I will change my hope. I hope I forget what I misunderstood (I don’t know how I can misunderstand something that is right there in front of my face!) and remember that they were married BEFORE the birth of Jesus.

They were married before the birth of Jesus.
They were married before the birth of Jesus.
They were married before the birth of Jesus.

OK, brain? Have you got it straight now (oh why did I start taking so much pain medication? ).

Anna, thanks for the clarification and for patiently explaining (again). I am so grateful for your help! Usually when I ask for help and post something that is absolutely incorrect and goes against Church teaching, nobody tells me I’m wrong. I WANT to be told I’m wrong - if I’m really wrong. I want so much to know truth. God bless you for helping me!

LittleSoldier,

You are waaay tooo hard on yourself.

When you asked, I really had to stop and think about it, because Scripture doesn’t really tell us exactly when Mary and Joseph married. The Gospels vary in their emphasis or mention of particular events. So, we have to consider the Gospel accounts together.

But, yes, they were married before Jesus was born.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m going to ask something because I think you know the answer. Did Jesus inherit his “human-hood” from Mary?

This should probably be presented in another thread and I don’t want to discuss it in detail but I recently heard that He did inherit His “human-hood” from Mary and that this is what the Church teaches.

Just a “yes” or “no” would suffice. I don’t want to take the thread off-topic but this has bothered me for awhile.

LittleSoldier,

Yes. (It’s so hard for me to give a one-word answer. )

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Not only that, but where were these putative siblings when Jesus was crucified? Shouldn’t they have taken care of Mary instead of John? Wasn’t that Jewish law?

It’s a bit more evidence to back up the claim that Jesus did not have blood siblings, although He may have had half-siblings (and where were they when He was crucified?)

Just sayin’ and askin’.

LittleSoldier,
This is actually one of the points in Holy Scripture that indicates Jesus had no siblings. Jewish custom would have required the next oldest brother to care for Mary.

Anna

 

[adrift]

When a child was named the first-born (my understanding is that the first-born male was consecrated in some way) was it always referring to the first-born of the mother or did it also refer to the first-born of the mother along with the father?

I really don’t know the answer to your very interesting question.
It is my understanding that it referred to the first born of the father. The first born was the one to inherit and receive the blessing of the father. The Gospel refers to Jesus being the firstborn of Mary.

If Jesus was the first-born of Joseph that would mean there were absolutely no siblings because there would have already been a first-born and so it wouldn’t make sense to call Jesus the first-born - unless Joseph had been married previously and had children and the first-born of those children existed before Jesus was born and was called the first-born - the addition of a second wife complicates things.

I would agree with you that if Jesus is the firstborn of Joseph it would mean that there were no other sibilings. It would mean that the suppposition that the brothers of Christ could not be stepbrothers. I do not know though if a man was married twice if his second wife’s first male would be designated as a firstborn. The problem with that would be that the first born inherieted the property of the Father. I believe that there would not be two males that would inherit. That would not allow for the second wifes child to inherit.

I guess this all goes into Jewish Law, which is a subject I know little about except that the child of a Jewish woman is considered Jewish. My nephew’s father is Jewish but his mother is not. And so my nephew is not Jewish (of course he could choose to be Jewish but he has not).

:whacky:

I know very little about the Jewish faith. I hope someone who does know willl answer.

 

[adrift]

They would have married either at some point during the trip or after they arrived in Bethlehem, but before the birth of Jesus:

Jewish marriage was accomplished in two steps.

1. They were married but did not live together. This part was called the betrothal. This lasted about a year but could have been as much as two. During this time the wife prepared herself to taking over the duties of her husband’s household. She remained at home waiting for her husband to come and take her to her new home We see this in the parable of the wise and unwise maids. The husband used this time to prepare a home for his wife. When he was ready, he went for his wife. His wife did not know when he would come as in the parable.
2. The second part of the marriage was when the husband took his wife into their home. The angel tells Joseph to fulfill the second part of the marriage when he tells Joseph to take Mary his wife into his home.

At the time of the annunciation of the Angel, when he appeared to Mary and told her she would be the mother of Jesus, she was in the first part of the marriage. She was already the wife of Joseph but not yet living with him. That is why the question she asks of the Angel shows that she had made a vow of virginity. The question was How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? A strange question from a married woman unless Mary was asking about her vow of virginity.
To restate it.
Mary and Joseph entered into a marriage contract before the appearance of the Angel to Mary but before they lived together.

 

[LittleSoldier]

LittleSoldier,

You are waaay tooo hard on yourself.

When you asked, I really had to stop and think about it, because Scripture doesn’t really tell us exactly when Mary and Joseph married. The Gospels vary in their emphasis or mention of particular events. So, we have to consider the Gospel accounts together.

But, yes, they were married before Jesus was born.

Peace,
Anna

Actually I’m kind of laughing at myself when I write things like that. And it does help to write what I’m trying to remember more than once. I’m trying to reverse brain damage without knowing how and I’m doing lots of things like playing online games that require thinking my way through problems and finding images that are hidden. It’s weird that I can have a real problem with a word like “grateful” because its meaning makes no sense at first glance. What does being full of grates have to do with appreciating what someone has done? But at the same time I can breeze my way through a maze with no problems at all.

It’s nice to know what is written in the Bible and what the Church teaches. And slowly I’m starting to get some of it right.

And at least my brain damage doesn’t cause problems like the poor man had when he tried to put his wife on his head, thinking that she was his hat (see Oliver Sacks’ The Man who Mistook his Wife for a Hat for some very interesting stories). Poor wife, too!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Jewish marriage was accomplished in two steps.

1. They were married but did not live together. This part was called the betrothal. This lasted about a year but could have been as much as two. During this time the wife prepared herself to taking over the duties of her husband’s household. She remained at home waiting for her husband to come and take her to her new home We see this in the parable of the wise and unwise maids. The husband used this time to prepare a home for his wife. When he was ready, he went for his wife. His wife did not know when he would come as in the parable.
2. The second part of the marriage was when the husband took his wife into their home. The angel tells Joseph to fulfill the second part of the marriage when he tells Joseph to take Mary his wife into his home.

At the time of the annunciation of the Angel, when he appeared to Mary and told her she would be the mother of Jesus, she was in the first part of the marriage. She was already the wife of Joseph but not yet living with him. That is why the question she asks of the Angel shows that she had made a vow of virginity. The question was How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? A strange question from a married woman unless Mary was asking about her vow of virginity.
To restate it.
Mary and Joseph entered into a marriage contract before the appearance of the Angel to Mary but before they lived together.

So during the time that the couple did not live together they could have sexual relations? What would happen if the woman became pregnant? Did she remain at the home of her parents? Did Jewish Law give any sort of special meaning to consummation?

I never understood that parable about the maids. Now it makes sense.

This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for the info. And I love your signature!

 

[rinnie]

I wonder if Jesus looked like Mary. It fascinates me that John recognized the Messiah before either of them were born! There was certainly something going on there. I don’t know much about John the Baptist but I know he was humble and he obeyed Jesus by baptising Him.

I’d like to learn more about Mary (I just got a few books about her but haven’t had time to start reading them) and now I would like to learn more about John the Baptist.

When I was about 5 I asked my Dad what does Jesus look like? I said the black man says black, white man white, red red, etc.

He said they are all correct. God made man in his image. SO I think it probally works kinda like when Peter spoke at Pentecost and they all heard him in their own language. Probally all walks of life see him in thier image:shrug: Thats what Papa said

He said when we meet Christ we will KNOW him. We probally saw him many times will never know, until we meet him for the last time.

Guess I better be nicer to strangers and exercise more patience in traffic etc. Just in case!

 

[Bible_is_truth]

Did Jesus have brothers and sisters?

Recently, I found myself in a discussion with some fellow Anglicans, at my Parish who insisted Jesus had brothers and sisters, because of Bible translations that speak of brothers and sisters of Jesus. For some reason, these few people are completely disregarding Tradition.

Traditions ,customs etc, the Bible is clear

This may answer the question,
Matthew 1 v 25 = but he knew her not ( as in Sexual relations ) until she had given birth to a son .And he called his name Jesus.
What you believe ,did Mary have other children or not,it
doe’s not take away what it say’s in the above verse

Blessings .

 

[PRmerger]

This may answer the question,
Matthew 1 v 25 = but he knew her not ( as in Sexual relations ) until she had given birth to a son .And he called his name Jesus.

Amen! But you are adding your 21st century understanding of “until” to 1st century usage of the word.

“Until” doesn’t mean in the Bible that things necessarily change AFTER the event. It is only an expression of things that occurred BEFORE.

Take this verse: For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. -1Cor 2:25

Do you really believe that AFTER Christ has put all his enemies under his feet he will cease to reign?

 

[LittleSoldier]

LittleSoldier,
This is actually one of the points in Holy Scripture that indicates Jesus had no siblings. Jewish custom would have required the next oldest brother to care for Mary.

Anna

I know. I’m agreeing with you. Jesus did not have any brothers or sisters - as we define them today.

I saw a video with Matt Slick (I always think that would be a great name for a used-car salesman - no offense meant to Mr. Slick) and through the whole video there was this photo of Matt Slick, which got very boring after about five seconds. Anyway, *he *used the word “until” as it is used today - in American English. And then he said that the word “until” in the Bible meant exactly the same thing. I guess he was there. Or perhaps those who penned the Bible somehow met with him. It all had to be cleared with Matt Slick because *his *use of the word “until” is the only way it could possibly be used.

And everyone in Bible times spoke 21st century American English.

 

[adrift]

So during the time that the couple did not live together they could have sexual relations? What would happen if the woman became pregnant? Did she remain at the home of her parents? Did Jewish Law give any sort of special meaning to consummation?

I never understood that parable about the maids. Now it makes sense.

This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for the info. And I love your signature!

No they did not have relations during this period. I would assume that the husband would take her to his house in order to avoid gossip. I don’t know the answer to your last question.

 

[adrift]

Amen! But you are adding your 21st century understanding of “until” to 1st century usage of the word.

“Until” doesn’t mean in the Bible that things necessarily change AFTER the event. It is only an expression of things that occurred BEFORE.

Take this verse: For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. -1Cor 2:25

Do you really believe that AFTER Christ has put all his enemies under his feet he will cease to reign?

You are correct. People think they understand the meaning of a word because of common usage. Until means up to a certain point but does not say anything beyond that pointl.

And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.

Do you think Michal had children after she died?

When you use the definition of the word, it does away with the problems you have trying to make it mean something it does not.

 

[lumenchristi]

There has been speculation the Joseph had children prior to marrying Mary. One of those was an older son named James. He is often referred to as the brother of Jesus, but, would, in fact, have been a half brother.

If in any ways Jesus had brothers/sisters I believe this is the way it was done, because Mary is “ever-virgin” I second this lol.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If in any ways Jesus had brothers/sisters I believe this is the way it was done, because Mary is “ever-virgin” I second this lol.

Life was so different back then and we’re speaking of the Jewish people and they paid attention to their laws (like it would have been acceptable to stone Mary for “adultery” and Joseph could have arranged this). But he was told in a dream to not worry about taking Mary for his wife. He wouldn’t have had her killed anyway as I believe the Bible states that he had decided to divorce her quietly. What a power over the life of a human being!

Yet people living today think that people living way back in Biblical times did everything exactly the same way they do it today and spoke 21st century English (even those who lived in Nazareth and Rome).

I’d like to find out more about the custom of young women becoming consecrated and remaining virgins even after marriage (although I would bet that many of them didn’t keep that promise) and married widowers in order to take care of their children. The Bible is silent on Mary’s upbringing and this has always bothered me. What was it like for her? I have absolutely no idea.

But people need to stop trying to smash people who lived thousands of years ago into a box manufactured in the 21st century and mangling their behavior so that they can fit into that box a little more easily. It wasn’t the same. It just wasn’t.

 

[highrigger1]

Anna,

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scholars and bible experts are in union on that opinion. Here is John Meire to explain.

John P. Meire
A Marginal Jew -Vol 1
Rethinking the Historical Jesus
Imprimitur
p 328

“What is the constant usage of the NT in this matter? The answer is clear; in the NT, adelphos,
when used not merely figuratively or metaphorically but rather to designate some sort of physical
or legal relationship, means only full or half brother, and nothing else. Outside our disputed case
it never means stepbrother (the solution of Epiphanius), cousin (the solution of Jerome), or nephew.
When one considers that adeophos (in either the literal or the metaphorical sense) is used a total
of 343 times in the NT,the consistency of this “literal” usage is amazing. To ignore the strikingly
constant usage of the NT in this regard, as well as the natural redactional sense of the Gospel
passage we have already examined, and to appeal instead to the usage of koine Greek in various
Jewish and Pagan texts cannot help but look like special pleading.”

p329

“Those who wish to use sustain the cousin approach must face the further difficulty that it is
a relatively late, post Nicene solution. By contrast both the Epiphanian solution and the view
that the “brothers of Jesus” were real brothers can find supporters in the 2d and 3d centuries.
The antiquity and spread of the opinion that the brothers of Jesus were real brothers are often
overlooked by the cousin approach.”

p331

“In the NT there is not a single clear case where “brother” means cousin or even stepbrother,
while there are abundant cases of its meaning physical brother(full or half). Hence from a
purely philological and historical point of view, the most probable opinion is that the
brothers and sisters of Jesus were his siblings. This interpretation of the NT texts was kept alive
by at least some Church writers up until the late 4th century.”

There is more but this is enough for the time being.
Meire covers all the aspects and arguments in history on this subject.

Peace, JohnR

 

[Farsight001]

Anna,

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scholars and bible experts are in union on that opinion. Here is John Meire to explain.

John P. Meire
A Marginal Jew -Vol 1
Rethinking the Historical Jesus
Imprimitur
p 328

“What is the constant usage of the NT in this matter? The answer is clear; in the NT, adelphos,
when used not merely figuratively or metaphorically but rather to designate some sort of physical
or legal relationship, means only full or half brother, and nothing else. Outside our disputed case
it never means stepbrother (the solution of Epiphanius), cousin (the solution of Jerome), or nephew.
When one considers that adeophos (in either the literal or the metaphorical sense) is used a total
of 343 times in the NT,the consistency of this “literal” usage is amazing. To ignore the strikingly
constant usage of the NT in this regard, as well as the natural redactional sense of the Gospel
passage we have already examined, and to appeal instead to the usage of koine Greek in various
Jewish and Pagan texts cannot help but look like special pleading.”

p329

“Those who wish to use sustain the cousin approach must face the further difficulty that it is
a relatively late, post Nicene solution. By contrast both the Epiphanian solution and the view
that the “brothers of Jesus” were real brothers can find supporters in the 2d and 3d centuries.
The antiquity and spread of the opinion that the brothers of Jesus were real brothers are often
overlooked by the cousin approach.”

p331

“In the NT there is not a single clear case where “brother” means cousin or even stepbrother,
while there are abundant cases of its meaning physical brother(full or half). Hence from a
purely philological and historical point of view, the most probable opinion is that the
brothers and sisters of Jesus were his siblings. This interpretation of the NT texts was kept alive
by at least some Church writers up until the late 4th century.”

There is more but this is enough for the time being.
Meire covers all the aspects and arguments in history on this subject.

Peace, JohnR

You should probably read your own article more carefully. As it says, “This interpretation of the NT texts was kept alive by at least some Church writers up until the late 4th century.” In other words, the interpretation that they are literal brothers of Jesus was popular before the late 4th century. It makes no statement regarding the thought or belief of Church writers after that point.

 

[stewstew03]

Anna,

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scholars and bible experts are in union on that opinion. Here is John Meire to explain.

You’re showing your bias again, Rigger. Are you familiar with the ecumenical work Mary in the New Testament? Referring to James, Joseph (Joses), Judas, and Simon, the Protestant & Catholic authors note:

“It cannot be said that the NT identifies them without doubt as blood brothers and sisters and hence as children of Mary.” -page 72

So much for your claim that “scholars and bible experts are in union on that opinion.”

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Yes Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scholars and bible experts are in union on that opinion. Here is John Meire to explain.

John P. Meire
A Marginal Jew -Vol 1
Rethinking the Historical Jesus
Imprimitur
p 328. . . .

John,

First let me say welcome to the forums! Glad you joined the discussion. It seems this thread has been resurrected.

Interesting commentary by Meire; but even writings of Protestant Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley disagree with Meire’s conclusions.

Also, I think you will have to provide proof that “scholars and Bible experts are in union” on the issue of whether or not Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Peace,
Anna