Did Jesus have Brothers?

[Ortho]

Mickey:

Do your research, kiddo.

You told us:
“Pious intelligent men have read the Bible for hundreds of years. Why have they not gleaned the understanding that you have?”

Perhaps they did. Do you know if they were allowed to express those views? Now they can, and they do. How about for those hundreds of years? Come on. You tell us about pious and intelligent men, then punt when challenged. Where’s the fun in that?

 

[TamaraS]

NonDenom:

Hi All.
The real question is, why would it matter? Wheather Mary had other children or not doesn’t diminish her greatness, it doesn’t make her less of a woman.
Thanks.

It doesn’t matter to you because you don’t look at Mary the same way as Catholics do.

 

[Ortho]

Tom:

There are several good references on the CA home page, some of the threads are:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93007
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11145
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=91766
Her perpetual virginity is Scriptural. There is NO Scriptural verse in which any other than Jesus is called the son of Mary.

I’m sure there are lots of references. But, just tell us. Do you base your position on an absence of scriptural verses?

Can you cite the verse that says she was a perpetual virgin? I wonder if that was as important to her as it is to some people today?

 

[Ortho]

TamaraS:

It doesn’t matter to you because you don’t look at Mary the same way as Catholics do.

Correct. It doesn’t matter to millions…billions. That’s why folks for whom it does not matter ask Catholics why it does matter. The problem is the Catholics don’t say why it is so important. What’s the big secret?

Do Catholics think virginity is better than having an active sex life in marriage? From their behavior, I’d say no. Does the Vatican think so?

 

[MonicaC]

NonDenom:

Hi All
The truth of the matter is, is that we don’t know for sure for it is not specificaly said in scripture. I know the Catholic view on this.
The real question is, why would it matter? Wheather Mary had other children or not doesn’t diminish her greatness, it doesn’t make her less of a woman.
Thanks.

I find this greatly offensive. You see you are saying that my mother is not who she is. She is very loyal to her spouse who happens to be the Holy Spirit. Saying anything else would just be insulting. If you personly want to talk about your mother in such a light I suppose you can. But please know that those of us who love our mother don’t appericate it.

Please try to be more considerate.

Thank you ,
Monica

 

[Ortho]

MonicaC:

I find this greatly offensive. You see you are saying that my mother is not who she is. She is very loyal to her spouse who happens to be the Holy Spirit. Saying anything else would just be insulting. If you personly want to talk about your mother in such a light I suppose you can. But please know that those of us who love our mother don’t appericate it.

Please try to be more considerate.

Thank you ,
Monica

Her spouse was the Holy Spirit? Was she married to Joseph? What was he?

 

[MonicaC]

Ortho:

Correct. It doesn’t matter to millions…billions. That’s why folks for whom it does not matter ask Catholics why it does matter. The problem is the Catholics don’t say why it is so important. What’s the big secret?

Do Catholics think virginity is better than having an active sex life in marriage? From their behavior, I’d say no. Does the Vatican think so?

I am sure you can find your answer if you do a search this has been talked about so much. We as catholics and by the way this was believed by the founders of Protestantism also, believe that Our Lady is the spouse and only spouse of the Holy Spirit so there for she could not have had relationships with any one else.

And the only thing we Catholics think is better than virginity is not being an adulterer. Which what you keep claiming of Mary my Lords Mother.

Monica

 

[MonicaC]

Ortho:

Her spouse was the Holy Spirit? Was she married to Joseph? What was he?

St Joseph was her protector. As he well demenstrates when he protected her and Our Lord from Herod as well as taken care of them until his death.

Monica

 

[TamaraS]

BrianH:

I think it is important to recognize the Bible CANNOT be used to PROVE he did not have brothers…that is all. I appreicate the rest of your comments and the spirit they were intended.

BH

If you read and interpret the bible as Catholics do, then you CANNOT prove that he did have brothers. It will be impossible to get you to understand Catholic doctrines when we’re not even on the same playing field. Catholics trust Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, while you rely on the bible only.
We were not given the bible and then left alone to read and interpret it for the next two thousand years all by ourselves. And to say the Holy Spirit is leading us each independently to understanding without a living authority makes no sense either. If that is so, why do we have so many disagreements on what a certain scripture means on not only small topics, but many crucial ones as well. The Holy Spirit does not contradict! It is nearly (name removed by moderator)ossible to get a non-Catholic to understand doctrines on issues such as Mary and Purgatory unless they are even open to accepting issues on apostolic tradition and authority. those isuues are really the foundation for other doctrines. Most non-Catholics don’t even agree with Catholics on what church means.

And you keep wondering why we care. If you viewed Mary the way that Catholics do, you would not be asking us why we even care.
-Tamara

 

[BrianH]

Hey lots of great posts since I last read…when is the first mention that Mary was always a virgin? A lot of mention of Sacred Tradition. When is the first time this was written down that we know about? Or…that the brothers of Jesus…were not brothers? Is it the Proto of James? Why do the Catholics contend that was written in 120 CE? I know Im repeating myself…but…

 

[BrianH]

TamaraS:

If you read and interpret the bible as Catholics do, then you CANNOT prove that he did have brothers. It will be impossible to get you to understand Catholic doctrines when we’re not even on the same playing field. Catholics trust Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, while you rely on the bible only.
We were not given the bible and then left alone to read and interpret it for the next two thousand years all by ourselves. And to say the Holy Spirit is leading us each independently to understanding without a living authority makes no sense either. If that is so, why do we have so many disagreements on what a certain scripture means on not only small topics, but many crucial ones as well. The Holy Spirit does not contradict! It is nearly (name removed by moderator)ossible to get a non-Catholic to understand doctrines on issues such as Mary and Purgatory unless they are even open to accepting issues on apostolic tradition and authority. those isuues are really the foundation for other doctrines. Most non-Catholics don’t even agree with Catholics on what church means.

And you keep wondering why we care. If you viewed Mary the way that Catholics do, you would not be asking us why we even care.
-Tamara

I do not have a lot of the presuppositions you assume that all non-Catholics have that aside, my previous post awaits an answer.

 

[JimG]

Brendan:

Gal 1:18-19 shows a great example of how the term “Brethren” is used.

Now there were 2 Apostels named James,

James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alphaeus. James of Zebedee was beheaded in AD 44, so the only James Paul could have met was James the son of Alphaeus.

So unless Mary was an adultress with Alphaeus (which no Christian can hold to); the title given James as “brother of the Lord” was meant to describe that of close companionship, or possibly a family relationship such as cousin.

This is a very good point. Paul calls James the brother of the Lord. Yet we know from Scripture itself that James was the son of Alphaeus. So, obviously, when Paul used the word brother, he didn’t mean a blood brother.

 

[TamaraS]

Ortho:

Correct. It doesn’t matter to millions…billions. That’s why folks for whom it does not matter ask Catholics why it does matter. The problem is the Catholics don’t say why it is so important. What’s the big secret?

There IS NO big secret! I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. We are always trying to explain what and why we believe. Anything that you want to know about what we believe and why is explained over and over again. You can ask anything you want to know here and people are more than happy to explain. You could also go to any good Catholic book store to pick up some great books.

Ortho:

Do Catholics think virginity is better than having an active sex life in marriage? From their behavior, I’d say no.

That is a pretty cheap shot. You shouldn’t comment about what goes on in the average married couple’s bedroom. Also, Catholics believe that Mary had a unique role. There is nothing average or ordinary about bearing God the Son in your womb, not to mention giving birth to him and raising him. That is VERY holy.

 

[Zooey]

MonicaC:

I find this greatly offensive. You see you are saying that my mother is not who she is. She is very loyal to her spouse who happens to be the Holy Spirit. Saying anything else would just be insulting. If you personly want to talk about your mother in such a light I suppose you can. But please know that those of us who love our mother don’t appericate it.

Please try to be more considerate.

Thank you ,
Monica

 

[BrianH]

JimG:

This is a very good point. Paul calls James the brother of the Lord. Yet we know from Scripture itself that James was the son of Alphaeus. So, obviously, when Paul used the word brother, he didn’t mean a blood brother.

Do you think that only the 12 are apostles? Paul was an apostle.
In Acts 14:14, Barnabas is referred to as an apostle.

 

[TamaraS]

BrianH:

Hey lots of great posts since I last read…when is the first mention that Mary was always a virgin? A lot of mention of Sacred Tradition. When is the first time this was written down that we know about? Or…that the brothers of Jesus…were not brothers? Is it the Proto of James? Why do the Catholics contend that was written in 120 CE? I know Im repeating myself…but…

Honestly, I personally don’t rely on the Protoevangelum of James for me to believe anything about Mary or Jesus. It doesn’t sound like a lot of other Catholics here do either. Honestly, if there was a writing outside of the bible that gave proof to these things, would you accept it? Would it really change your view ? ( I feel like your just looking for a “magic bullet” here.) Probably not, since you rely on the bible only (please forgive me if I’m wrong in assuming this. It’s just that from reading some of your posts that was the conclusion I came to ). So, in my opinion, this question isn’t really relevent.

 

[Brendan]

BrianH:

Do you think that only the 12 are apostles? Paul was an apostle.
In Acts 14:14, Barnabas is referred to as an apostle.

Yes. And in the Bible, we see where both were made Apostles, were both where given their Authority?

Where was a 3rd James made an Apostle? What chapter or verse?

 

[tdandh26]

Ortho:

Correct. It doesn’t matter to millions…billions. That’s why folks for whom it does not matter ask Catholics why it does matter. The problem is the Catholics don’t say why it is so important. What’s the big secret?

Do Catholics think virginity is better than having an active sex life in marriage? From their behavior, I’d say no. Does the Vatican think so?

Catholic understanding of the bible is not limited to the new testament alone. Along with sacred Tradition, the archatypes of the new testament are prefigured in the old. Like the manna in the desert is the prefigurement of the Eucharist. The Arc of the Covenant, which carried the word of God, was incapable of being touched by human hands lest that person die. The Arc is the prefigurment of Mary, who carried the Word made flesh.

The old testament refutes a lot of protestant theories, while it supports Catholic understanding. Jesus said “I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it”. Meaning He perfected what He(God) had begun under the old Jewish religion. The Church in its entirerty is the fulfillment of that law, for Jesus also said " not the smallest letter of the law shall pass away."

 

[MysticRose]

BrianH:

Burden of proof?!?!
So…I am to read all this and the logical conclusion was cousin?
No…you would have to have a reason to think otherwise.
Seriously do you think the Bible can be used to prove HE DID NOT HAVE BROTHERS…?

Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”
Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
** Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”**
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”

No one has answered my question about first documentation?
BH

Actually Yes I already did by recounting the same thing in Acts to you, when it was recounted in Acts

It was numbered at that point and it was made known too that he spoke to them in the Temple which is also a common belief not only in Catholic theology but also in Protestant theology as well and that his is where they then asked him those questions … The number was 120 and that would have had to mean that Mary had 120 children, which would statistically been impossible …

Given these factors that
!) Christ was without a doubt Mary’s first born
2) Christ’s age at the time
3) the number of children in succession that she would had to had in a row keeping her constantly prgnant and still it would not add up to anywhere near that number

Also, if it was just his brothers and sisters or natural siblings that called him out then why was not Mary with them? She was with Jesus …

This also would have meant a violation of Jewish Traditions and Laws to then NOT transfer custody over to one of his blood brothers, and therefore, if his mother had gone along with it then would have put her own life in jeapardy as well considering that they could have then also done the same to her as they did to her Son for defying the Jewish Laws …

Actually I think it was pretty much squarely proven to you, but you chose to ignore certain posts that would indeed prove your theory wrong because then it would mean that you are wrong to believe that way about the Mother of our Lord to begin with, and it might mean that we are right about other things too …

 

[BrianH]

Brendan:

Yes. And in the Bible, we see where both were made Apostles, were both where given their Authority?

Where was a 3rd James made an Apostle? What chapter or verse?

Not there…I guess all I have is some guy that Mark and Matthew found so important they listed him first as being a brother of Jesus…and a guy who matches that same name…and who Paul describes as a brother also being listed as an apostle. So you obviously have no problem with there being more than twelve apostles…which is good…but you have a problem that we do not know when it happened…the main thing for you is that IT IS NOT the guy mentioned twice before by Mark and Matthew?
Interesting

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”