Wiley, I refer to what someone mentioned above. Free will choice doesn’t have to be a choice between good and sinful. Jesus chose to go to Jerusalem fully knowing that He could have been in danger there but what if Jesus fled to Egypt, like when He was an infant? That wouldn’t be a sinful choice, it could have been a delay of the inevitable like He did thoughout His life. Why did He chose that moment to submit to the sacrifice? This question has spurred alot of things in my mind.
I would think that if something is not good then by definition it would be sinful. But that is not what I am talking about. Jesus wished that He did not have to do the task in front of Him, but because He made the decision to always do the will of the Father He would not have done anything else even though He could have. He would not have fled from it.
That moment was chosen by God and the Word since the dawn of time. If you are not familiar with the YouTube video “The Star of Bethlehem” look it up. By using a planetarium program he was able to look at the night sky from Baghdad from (I forget the date) 4 B.C. It identifies that there actually WAS a celestial event which could easily be interpreted as a virgin giving birth to a king in Judea. The significance that it was announced in the stars since the dawn of time did not escape the Magi (astrologers) and it set them on their journey. So Jesus’ birth, life, death and resurrection were not by random chance, but a planned event from the beginning.
Neither. God needs nothing from us. Jesus’ sacrifice was for us. God is love. Love by its basic nature MUST be shared. Hence the reason He created us in His image as spiritual beings. Love is best when it is returned, but it cannot be forced and remain love. So God could not create us “already loving”; that would be a contradiction. It is my firm belief that is the reason that He created the physical realm; so we could learn to love selflessly. Jesus’ message, His suffering, death and resurrection showed us how we can be more like Him if we live our lives in love and as a result be one with God.
Sure it does. None of us can be tempted to do something which we cannot do. I am not tempted to fly to the moon because it is beyond my capability. I am tempted to drive cross-country because I can do that. You are tempted to eat donuts only because you know you can drive down to the shop and get some. If you couldn’t get them you would not be tempted. You may wish you had some but that is not the same thing.
Read #475 again: "Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation. Christ’s human will “does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will.”
I would agree. Jesus’ human will might be opposed, but because Jesus would always choose to do the will of God He had to obey. I agree with your last sentence here as well.
So what you are saying appears to be in agreement with me. His decision was His free will choice to die for us. That was a free will decision, a merciful offering to redeem us. BUT Jesus didn’t have to do this He did it out of love for us. I don’t think it would be a sin if He didn’t. This was given freely, not a choice between yes or no. Now if you compare it to what Adam and Eve did, Jesus yes versus Adams no I can see that but we’re not talking about Adam, we’re talking about Jesus Son of God. Please bear with me.
So it was the Hour. I understand that.
But what if I were homebound or on a desert island and I couldn’t get access to donuts? hehe… Okay think about this what if a person was a gambler but yet couldn’t because he was in prison. Could that be a struggle for the person? Could we visibly see the person struggling with that temptation? Temptation itself becomes a visible struggle. I would say Jesus had some of that in the desert, where there was no water, or way to get out. He struggled and we see that struggle many times. The devil makes us struggle but it’s all false, there’s nothing to gain from what the devil has to offer. Please bear with me.
So the free will choice to die for our sins was a decision. I get that and believe that. I still have to let this resonate in my soul.
Then you would have a desire for donuts, but you would not be tempted because it would be impossible to get them. I would LOVE to go to the moon, but I am not tempted to do it because it is beyond my capability.
Yes I agree I stated my question incorrectly. I should have said: Was the sacrifice made by Jesus or by the Father. I would say both but it makes me think about the unity of the Father and Son and how the Son abides the Father in all things and how it would be impossible for Jesus, the Son of Man to go against this heavenly union. But I know Jesus submits to the Will of the Father even though it was a monumentally difficult task leading to His ultimate death so both suffer for our sins to provide Mercy for us.
Not every yes-or-no question has a yes-or-no answer printed directly in the Catechism.
What about it? What do you mean by your question?
Where did I dispute any of that???goout:
Granted Genesis has historical elements, but it is not a history book. The first five books of the Bible is a blend of four different oral traditions. These were stories which had been told and retold for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years before the were even written.
And in the more recent post, I phrased it this way:
As I’ve written several times now, these questions that are asked along the lines of “what if the events of the Gospel had been different?” really serve no purpose because all we can do is make logical circles (it couldn’t have happened because it didn’t happen that way).
I mean it happened this way so why go back and re-think it. I do enough of that re-thinking already and it drives my husband batty…lol Jesus I trust in You! This happened the way it happened because God loves us and theres no need to go back to a what if.