Did Jesus have the ability to say "No" to the Father?

[Happymom]

Thank you WIley for taking the time to respond as you did to me. I know it takes some effort.

One year for Christmas we saw such exhibit like you said ‘the Star of Bethlehem’ at the Adler planetarium in Chicago. It was quite interesting!

 

[WileyC1949]

Where did I dispute any of that???
That is in fact, the very point I am trying to make to you.
This is what you wrote that I responded to:

Okay. Then we are on the same page.

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

I just saw this thread now, so apologies in advance if the point I’m about to make has already been brought up.

I once heard a priest say Jesus could not have sinned otherwise he would not be God. Yes, the Son had a full human nature and free will but he also enjoyed the beatific vision, thus was incapable of sinning.

Thoughts?

 

[WileyC1949]

I once heard a priest say Jesus could not have sinned otherwise he would not be God. Yes, the Son had a full human nature and free will but he also enjoyed the beatific vision, thus was incapable of sinning.

No problem. Yes, that issue was brought up and there was (and still is). I don’t think it has quite gotten to the pitchforks and clubs stage, but when I was coming home earlier I did seen in a field a pole with a bunch of burning straw and a poster on the pole that said “WileyC” on it. I don’t know if I should be worried or what…

While the discussion is on going, I think the more authoritative respondents agree with what I said. Jesus had a human will which could have said “No”, but He was so aligned to the will of the Father that He never would have said that.

 

[Fauken]

When discussing Our Lord’s human will and sinning, I use the example of me intentionally shooting myself in the foot. Could I? Certainly. I have a hand and arm to do it. I could go purchase or borrow a gun. I have eyes and the coordination to aim it and shoot it. But why on earth would I? The idea is completely absurd.

 

[WileyC1949]

Good… There is another video that corrects what was seen as mistakes in the first that was very good as well. The planetarium program that was used in “Star of Bethlehem” costs $150.00 to download. The one in the second is called “Stellarium” and is available free to download. I got that one and checked what they were saying, and sure enough there it was.

Really, really interesting is the fact that the exact same conjunction of Jupiter and Venus that they spoke about in the programs occurred again just last August… (not last month, 2017 August). The last time this happened was when Jesus was born. I saw it and never saw anything so bright in the sky other than the sun. The interesting thing is that whereas at Jesus birth it was in the eastern sky whereas this one was in the western sky. Considering all the climate change and resulting storms, the Church under attack, may people leaving the faith, the rise of unbelief all of which are in the Bible as signs of the beginning of end times I have to wonder if there is any significance to that. The sun rises in the east… the beginning… the alpha, and sets in the west… the end… the omega. It has raised the question in my mind.

I would love to get one of the priest’s interpretation of this.

 

[WileyC1949]

When discussing Our Lord’s human will and sinning, I use the example of me intentionally shooting myself in the foot. Could I? Certainly. I have a hand and arm to do it. I could go purchase or borrow a gun. I have eyes and the coordination to aim it and shoot it. But why on earth would I? The idea is completely absurd.

That is exactly what we have been saying. His human will did have the ability to say no, but He decided to always subject His human will to the Divine will, and He did so perfectly. So as a result while He could have, He never would have done that.

 

[Happymom]

I just saw this thread now, so apologies in advance if the point I’m about to make has already been brought up.

I once heard a priest say Jesus could not have sinned otherwise he would not be God. Yes, the Son had a full human nature and free will but he also enjoyed the beatific vision, thus was incapable of sinning.

Thoughts?

I would say it was because Jesus divine will was stronger than His Human will so Jesus may have had an outer struggle but not as much of an inner struggle like we may have. I mean the closer we get to Jesus the harder it is for us to cross God. Imagine how close Jesus was to Himself… I mean Jesus is the author of these words.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you–they are full of the Spirit and life.

 

[semper_catholicus]

The Angelic Doctor teaches in the Summa Theologiae That sin is does not belong to human nature. Perfect human nature. Christ took on a perfect human nature.

In addition, it is not a nature that sins (or says no), it is a person.

 

[Happymom]

The Angelic Doctor teaches in the Summa Theologiae That sin is does not belong to human nature. Perfect human nature. Christ took on a perfect human nature.

In addition, it is not a nature that sins (or says no), it is a person.

Semper, Adam also took on perfect human nature but Adam sinned against God. There was something more special about Jesus.

 

[Fauken]

Semper, Adam also took on perfect human nature but Adam sinned against God. There was something more special about Jesus.

Mary was fully human and did not sin. And she didn’t need God’s divinity to do so.

 

[WileyC1949]

The Angelic Doctor teaches in the Summa Theologiae That sin is does not belong to human nature. Perfect human nature. Christ took on a perfect human nature.

The fact that we have free will means we have the ability to do something evil even though we do not exercise that ability. I would agree that sin does not belong to human nature, but ability to sin does. Christ’s actually proved that by the fact because perfect human nature would not sin, and He didn’t.

What I would give to have His strength of character!

 

[Happymom]

Happymom:

Semper, Adam also took on perfect human nature but Adam sinned against God. There was something more special about Jesus.

Mary was fully human and did not sin. And she didn’t need God’s divinity to do so.

Mary was blessed among women. That means out of all women, even Eve who was also born without sin, she carried the blessings and protection from God. Protection which shielded her from the evil one. This too was by Gods providence.

 

[Fauken]

Mary was blessed among women. That means out of all women, even Eve who was born without sin, she carried the blessings and protection from God. Protection which shielded her from the evil one.

That protection was being born without Original Sin. Which Eve was also born without. Saying she had protection that Eve didn’t makes no sense. For one, if such protection was available, why did God deprive it from Eve but give it to Mary? Secondly, it suggests that sin is in our nature, that it takes an extraordinary intervention from God for it to not affect us, and that Mary’s fiat could not have been made of Mary’s own volition without that extraordinary intervention. If it takes special blessings from God to make Mary allow what God wants done to be done to her, in fact, than none of us are capable of allowing God into our lives without first some extraordinary, albeit limited since it’s not like Mary’s, intervention from God.

 

[Happymom]

Happymom:

Mary was blessed among women. That means out of all women, even Eve who was born without sin, she carried the blessings and protection from God. Protection which shielded her from the evil one.

That protection was being born without Original Sin. Which Eve was also born without. Saying she had protection that Eve didn’t makes no sense. For one, if such protection was available, why did God deprive it from Eve but give it to Mary? Secondly, it suggests that sin is in our nature, that it takes an extraordinary intervention from God for it to not affect us, and that Mary’s fiat could not have been made of Mary’s own volition without that extraordinary intervention. If it takes special blessings from God to make Mary allow what God wants done to be done to her, in fact, than none of us are capable of allowing God into our lives without first some extraordinary, albeit limited since it’s not like Mary’s, intervention from God.

Jesus is our redeemer, our second chance to be in union with God. Adam was the first, also was Eve. Both didn’t make it, because of not obeying to God. Yes Mary had special graces that Eve didn’t because Mary was to bring Our Lord into the world and He needed protection. The womb that carried Jesus hold not only Jesus but those who are sons and daughters of Mary. So God gave us a second chance through Mary and Jesus. Mary could have said no to God but didn’t, Eve did. Mary carried that divine grace in her soul that Satan couldn’t penetrate because God protected her and so Mary was full of Grace.
This was Gods plan…

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

 

[Happymom]

Happymom:

Mary was blessed among women. That means out of all women, even Eve who was born without sin, she carried the blessings and protection from God. Protection which shielded her from the evil one.

Secondly, it suggests that sin is in our nature, that it takes an extraordinary intervention from God for it to not affect us, and that Mary’s fiat could not have been made of Mary’s own volition without that extraordinary intervention. If it takes special blessings from God to make Mary allow what God wants done to be done to her, in fact, than none of us are capable of allowing God into our lives without first some extraordinary, albeit limited since it’s not like Mary’s, intervention from God.

For your second point yes we are sinners, we often sin, but we don’t have to and when we do we have our redeemer and friend Jesus who will help us get to heaven. It’s not that hard…

 

[Fauken]

Mary could have said no to God but didn’t, Eve did.

Mary was to bring Our Lord into the world and He needed protection.

How on earth could Mary have said no and go against God’s will when, as you say, it was God’s will that she bring Him into the world? Again, that makes no sense. What protection against sin does God require? Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus required such protection? What authoratative source in the Church says that Jesus was vulnerable to the stain of sin? Mary’s sinlessness was not for God’s protection, but for His glory. He didn’t need to be held in a sinless vessel. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant; if gold and jewels were worthy to hold that which God’s own finger touched, then an even greater and more richly adorned vessel should be used to carry God in the flesh. And so the greatest conceivable adornment was given to her: the eternal sacrifice of Christ at Calvary which cleansed her from Original Sin. There was no greater preparation to be the Theotokos than that.

Mary had a choice. Eve had a choice. How could Mary’s yes be so great if it was already determined from the start?

For your second point yes we are sinners, we often sin, but we don’t have to and when we do we have our redeemer and friend Jesus who will help us get to heaven. It’s not that hard…

That does not mean that we are by nature sinners. That’s actually total depravity, and heretical.

 

[Happymom]

Happymom:

Mary could have said no to God but didn’t, Eve did.

How on earth could Mary have said no and go against God’s will when, as you say, it was God’s will that she bring Him into the world? Again, that makes no sense. What protection against sin does God require? Where is it written in the Bible that Jesus required such protection? What authoratative source in the Church says that Jesus was vulnerable to the stain of sin? Mary’s sinlessness was not for God’s protection, but for His glory. He didn’t need to be held in a sinless vessel. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant; if gold and jewels were worthy to hold that which God’s own finger touched, then an even greater and more richly adorned vessel should be used to carry God in the flesh. And so the greatest conceivable adornment was given to her: the eternal sacrifice of Christ at Calvary which cleansed her from Original Sin. There was no greater preparation to be the Theotokos than that.

For your second point yes we are sinners, we often sin, but we don’t have to and when we do we have our redeemer and friend Jesus who will help us get to heaven. It’s not that hard…

That does not mean that we are by nature sinners. That’s actually total depravity, and heretical.

Too many questions in one quote for me but I’ll try to touch on all…

Jesus needed protection because He was fully human. Can you imagine Jesus being brought up with a Mom who wasn’t as grace filled as Mary?? What if she yelled terribly at Jesus or something, taught Him how to lie, steal or cheat… Jesus human will just may have gotten stronger. Scripture says Jesus grew in wisdom and stature… Mary studied in the temple and we can bet Jesus learned from her. Jesus learned great compassion from Mary and respected her knowledge even so Mary had some connection with God as we see at the Wedding of Cana and telling the disciples to fill jars of water which Jesus turned into wine…You got the part about Mary being the Ark, made perfectly to Gods specifications, so Mary could bring Jesus and the Church protected in Her perfectly pure womb all the way home to the promised land.

About us being sinners. We are born without that connection with God because we lost it with Adam and we have, like Adam, the inclination to sin as we see very early in the scriptures. It only took 40 days for the Israelites to rebel and make a golden calf when Moses went up the mountain. Yes we’re an impatient bunch. But as much as we learned from sinful people in the past people still continue to sin, thus why we say we have a sinful nature. No we don’t have to, we’re supposed to love people but hate sin. If you say we don’t have a sinful nature, I say you’re not looking around very well.


If St. Augustine came up with the doctrine of depravity how can that be heretical? Actually I just looked up that word…depravity…
Psalm 16:2 I say to the Lord, “You are my Lord;
I have no good apart from you.”

 

[Happymom]

What authoratative source in the Church says that Jesus was vulnerable to the stain of sin?

My response to Fauken in reference to what I wrote above.

CCC 531 During the greater part of his life Jesus shared the condition of the vast majority of human beings: a daily life spent without evident greatness, a life of manual labor. His religious life was that of a Jew obedient to the law of God,221 a life in the community. From this whole period it is revealed to us that Jesus was “obedient” to his parents and that he "increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man."222

CCC 532 Jesus’ obedience to his mother and legal father fulfills the fourth commandment perfectly and was the temporal image of his filial obedience to his Father in heaven. The everyday obedience of Jesus to Joseph and Mary both announced and anticipated the obedience of Holy Thursday: "Not my will. . ."223 The obedience of Christ in the daily routine of his hidden life was already inaugurating his work of restoring what the disobedience of Adam had destroyed.224

 

[WileyC1949]

Yet that is exactly what the story of A & E says. How does it make any sense that He would place it in the garden in the first place? He placed it right in the middle where it could not be missed! The only logical conclusion that anyone could come to is because He WANTED them to eat from “The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” aka have a conscience. So the question that you should be asking is not IF eating from the tree was God’s plan but rather WHY was it part of His plan?

I don’t know if I said this earlier before of if it was somewhere else, but God is love, and love by its basic nature has to be shared. Hence the reason why He created us as immortal spiritual beings. Love also by its nature is best when it is returned, so He would want us to love as well. But the problem… love cannot be forced and remain love. Love must be freely given. So He could not create us already loving as that would be a contradiction.

It is my believe that the reason He created the physical realm is for us to learn how to love. Here we are given the complete freedom to select to do any evil even though it leads away for love and God because only then do we have the freedom to select to do the good that leads towards them. Here we are denied direct knowledge of God’s existence as that knowledge would interfere with the freedom of our choice. Here to we experience pain, suffering, toil and death because they teach us compassion and sympathy when some else is experiencing them; compassion and sympathy teach us to care about everyone; caring about everyone teaches us selfless love. The physical world is a schoolhouse where we are taught how to become one with God. God certainly can use evil to bring about something that is good. The imperfection we have in the physical world is part of God’s perfect plan.

While I agree with Augustine that by abusing free will man can lose himself and thus lose his free will by becoming trapped in a web of consequences, I see no difference between being free to choose to sin and freely choosing to be in a state of bondage due to sin. They both involve free will.