Did Jesus have the ability to say "No" to the Father?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WileyC1949
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
page 2

I would agree that He is incapable of committing sin because of His choice to always submit to the will of the Father. He has His human will and has the ability to sin but He would never do so.

You are just playing with words here. The Bible actually DOES say that God created evil. Isiah 45:7:
“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
Again it is not a question of “Did He?” but rather “Why did He?”

???
 
Jesus couldn’t say no to the will of the father because God can’t sin. God had free will but without sin, God has free will to choose whatever is good and can choose the best good
 
40.png
goout:
Where did I dispute any of that???
That is in fact, the very point I am trying to make to you.
This is what you wrote that I responded to:
Okay. Then we are on the same page.
As regards your OP we’re not really.
 
The Angelic Doctor teaches in the Summa Theologiae That sin is does not belong to human nature. Perfect human nature. Christ took on a perfect human nature.

In addition, it is not a nature that sins (or says no), it is a person.
Yes, but the question is not about sin, but about the possibility to sin.
 
Not quite what I’m saying. I say that because the sentence is phrased as “because A, then B.” That’s simply not what I am saying.

Instead, what I am saying is that the possibility was there.

I’m basing it not on a theological or philosophical argument; but on what we read in the Gospel directly–ie the Temptation in the Desert. A temptation (by definition) isn’t possible unless the one being tempted can sin. We know He was tempted (else we say that the Gospel is fiction, and we certainly don’t go there).

What I am saying is that a temptation is not possible unless the one-being-tempted has at least the most remote possibility of actually giving-in to it.

See the Summa Q 41 A 1 http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4041.htm
Also, Hebrews 4:15

Christ gave us an example in the Gospel. An example of what? Of saying “no” to sin (of not-sinning). If one cannot sin, then neither can he be setting an example for others because we certainly can sin.

I have a coffee cup on my desk. It cannot sin. I don’t look at it and say “there’s an example of not-sinning.”
Of course, not, It cannot sin. If it cannot sin, it cannot set an example for me. In order to be an example, it has to have at least the possibility that it could sin.

So, again, if it were absolutely impossible (take those words in the strongest sense) for Christ to have sinned, then likewise, it would be impossible for Him to have set an example for us to follow.
Will we have the capacity to sin in heaven?
This might surprise you, but I’m going to say “I don’t know.”

First, the answer to your question might be divided into two categories: the present-day and after the Final Judgement.

As for after the Judgement, I will say “no.” (the fullness of heaven won’t happen until after the Judgement, but once that fullness does happen it will be absolute).

As for before then, we might expect the answer to be a definitive no,…

(aside: certainly, any theological discussion would lead to the conclusion “no.” I’m aware of that, so there’s no need to “prove” it. I take it as a given, believe me. Again, I take it as a given.)

… but then I think about Lucifer and the other fallen angels. Were they in heaven? Yes. Did they have the capacity to sin? Yes (we know they did, therefore they must have had the capacity). That means that it does not necessarily follow that “being in heaven” means “lacking the capacity to sin.” Therefore, I see an example, one that we can’t deny happened, that contradicts the theological answer.

That’s my response to your question, but I don’t see it going anywhere. Instead, I see it as one of those “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” questions.

Addition: by the way, there won’t be any sin in heaven. I don’t want anyone to think I’m trying to say there will be.
 
Last edited:
Absolutely not! The Beatific Vision is full participation in the Divine Life. We will be perfectly Divinized, and as it is impossible for God to sin, so will it be for us who are sharing in the Trinitarian nature.
 
but then I think about Lucifer and the other fallen angels. Were they in heaven? Yes. Did they have the capacity to sin? Yes
Lucifer and the other fallen angels did not share in the Beatific Vision. Hence their capacity to fall from grace.
 
That may be, but I think my guess is a valid one that answers all the subsequent questions. Whether or not He did do it as a classroom to teach how to love we will not know until we meet Him.

That’s not what I meant. According to the story putting the tree in the garden was not an evil. Nor would A & E eating from the tree be an evil or a sin any more than if you put a steak down in front of a dog and told him not to eat it but he did anyways would be a sin. Yes, according to the story they disobeyed God just as the dog disobeyed his master, But for something to be “sinful” it must be done with complete knowledge that what they were doing was a sin, an evil. In the story A/E did not have that knowledge until AFTER they disobeyed God. They and the dog may have known that they were disobeying the master but neither had the knowledge that disobeying the master was a “sin”. That is why I said the first true sin came immediately after when they refused to take responsibility for their own actions by blaming someone else.

Did God will that they do evil? No. He gave us free will. But, He also knew that they would fail and thus fulfill the reason why He created the physical realm. (Or are you implying that God is not omniscient?) According the story He did will that the tree be in the center of the garden and bear tempting fruit.

And again, your use of “privation” is simply word-play. To say that Jesus’ human will did not have the ability to say no is to say that His suffering and death was a programmed response, not something He entered into willingly. If that is the case then there was NO sacrifice! Perish THAT thought! His human will decided to always obey the will of God, so no, He never would sin. He submitted His will to the will of the Father.

See page 2>>>>
 
Thank you for making this distinction. This hits the the nail square on the head.
 
Can we make a couple of fine distinctions here?
The thread is conflating abilities, or potency, with capacities, or dispositions.

A person can have the power to choose and act for evil, and at the same time he can be disposed to the good in such a way that the personal capacity to do evil is not operative.

Everyone…Jesus is perfected in love, which means he is perfected in his will to the good. And here is the key point: to be perfected in love does not detract from one’s abilities, or potency. It adds to them.
This is the chief lie of the devil: if you submit yourself to the will of God, you will be less powerful, less free, less human. In other words, “God will deprive you if you submit to him in love”. And that is a lie. As I submit myself to the will of God as Jesus perfectly did, I am more free, more potent, and at the same time more responsible.

Jesus is able to sin, but he does not because he is perfect as his Father is perfect. He is perfectly united to his Father.

This is why the practice of virtue is so important: it orders ones potency, or agency, to the good in an habitual way.
 
Last edited:
Not quite. The unanimous teaching is “did not.” Which is not the same as “could not.”

Again, the Temptation in the Desert. If it were impossible that Christ could have turned the stones into bread, then the fact that He did not do it is rather pointless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top