Did Jesus REALLY do this?

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I am not sure who “we” is, but the Catholic Church does not teach that the Bible is 100% historically accurate. Also, very little in the Bible is “written as historical” if by that it is meant that the purpose of recording it was to make a history of the event. The Bible was written for our salvation and guidance. It has great value as a historical document, but that is not its purpose.

Of the many things that I see over and over on this forum, this one never ceases to amaze me. Why do so many Catholics either misunderstand or refuse to believe what the Church teaches about Scripture? Dei Verbum is pretty clear on this, the Catechism is perhaps less straight forward, but still makes the point. The Bible is not a history text.
Hi, TMC!

…perhaps most Catholics are not tinkerers and they become emotionally bound to defend the Bible as part of a historic account of Yahweh and Yeshua among humans.

I also believe that most Catholics receive the Bible as a Divinely Inspired collection of Writings.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I am not sure who “we” is, but the Catholic Church does not teach that the Bible is 100% historically accurate.
“We” referred to conservative Christians who agree with me :p.

The Catholic Church doesn’t seem to have given any direct statement in modern times that says whether or not the Bible is inerrant. However, according to the Religious Tolerance Organization, up to the mid-20th century, the view that the Bible was inerrant was the accepted Catholic position. It can be found in the statements of many of the Early Church Fathers, and was declared outright as being true by many popes. It was believed by Catholics just about universally for about 1,950 years (I’ll prove this in my next post). This only changed after Vatican II made a fairly ambiguous statement on the topic.
Also, very little in the Bible is “written as historical” if by that it is meant that the purpose of recording it was to make a history of the event. The Bible was written for our salvation and guidance. It has great value as a historical document, but that is not its purpose.
I agree with you very strongly on this point. History was not the primary purpose of the Bible. It is God’s Word, and God spoke it primarily for our salvation and guidance. Yet, as Iraneas said, God’s Word is also perfect. Therefore it does not contain historical errors, aside from a handful of minor translation glitches.
Of the many things that I see over and over on this forum, this one never ceases to amaze me. Why do so many Catholics either misunderstand or refuse to believe what the Church teaches about Scripture? Dei Verbum is pretty clear on this, the Catechism is perhaps less straight forward, but still makes the point. The Bible is not a history text.
Catholics often don’t accept this position because it is not the historical Church position. It is a very modern revision in the Church’s position. Also, the Catholic Church has even today never declared in a clear manner that the Bible is not all inerrant.
 
Here’s my evidence for the historical church position on inerrancy.
Religious Tolerance Organization:
The term “inerrancy” is rarely used by the Roman Catholics church. However, the concept of inerrancy is present in many of their beliefs about the Bible.

The teachings of the Church have evolved over the years. Various Catholic sources have given apparently conflicting views on the nature of biblical inerrancy:
Code:
**Some claim that, in its original autograph version, the Bible is inerrant -- without error. This belief developed naturally from their conviction that God inspired the authors of the Bible. If God was influencing the writers, then he would not have led them into error. This appears to be the consensus of the popes, and most of the Catholic scholars and other church leaders until the mid 20Hometh century.**

Other Catholics teach a more recent concept: that of limited inerrancy. This views the Bible as being without error in certain matters such as faith, morals and the criteria for salvation. However, the Bible contains errors when describing other matters, such as scientific observations and historical events. This belief had its origins in the church with the writings of Richard Simon (1638 - 1712) who rejected Moses as author of the Pentateuch. He partly inspired the literary-criticism method of analyzing biblical passages which became influential among 19Hometh century Christians.

Still other Catholic theologians and scholars have agreed with liberal Protestants by rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible. They interpret it as containing much legend, myth, historical and scientific inaccuracies, religious propaganda, etc. Of these intellectuals, Dominic Crossan is one of the most popular writers among the general public.
I would particularly draw your attention to the organization’s statement that the scripture being error free, or inerrant, was the “consensus of the popes, and most of the Catholic scholars and other church leaders until the mid 20th century.”

This does not mean that there weren’t non-literal interpretations prior to the 20th century.

In the early days of the Church, according to my research, there were two main schools of scriptural interpretation, the schools of Antioch and Alexandria. The school of Antioch interpreted the scripture primarily literally, and, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, “The literal interpretation of Scripture had its beginnings in the early church in school of Antioch.”

The school of Alexandria, on the other hand, focused upon metaphor and typology. Origen, according to Terence Keegan’s book, “Interpreting the Bible: A Popular Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics,” believed that, “biblical texts can be read according to their literal, historical sense, but this sense provides only a shadow of the reality that the Scriptures are intended to communicate” (p. 16).

Keegan continues, saying that, “the allegorical method continued as the dominant methodology for biblical interpretation until the thirteenth century.” In the 13th century, St. Thomas Aquinas changed perspectives a lot. St. Thomas Aquinas, according to Keegan, “did not deny that the Old Testament prefigured the realities of Christ and Christian existence, nor that there were indeed spiritual or mystical senses of passages that went beyond the literal sense. He did maintain, however, that these other senses contained nothing that could not be found elsewhere in Scripture in the literal sense, and that only the literal sense could be used in theological argumentation.” Keegan writes that, “Scholastic theology left the Christian world with a singleminded concern for the literal, historical sense of Scripture, a concern that remains manifest among most Christians right up to the present day.” So St. Thomas Aquinas brought a literal emphasis back, but acceptance of the literal inerrancy of the Bible has always been a part of church tradition. The differences between the schools of Antioch and Alexandria are described in my sources as a matter of emphasis, not conflict. The Bible was always seen as inerrant. Alexandria simply did not emphasize this. Instead, it emphasized the typological and allegorical. This emphasis should not be seen as a rejection of the literal interpretation the School of Antioch pressed for.

Origen, also, one of the primary leaders of the School of Alexandria, did not object to a literal interpretation at all. In his view, according to Keegan, “Biblical texts can be read according to their literal, historical sense, but this sense provides only a shadow of the reality that the Scriptures are intended to communicate. The real world of the biblical texts is the world of faith which can be attained wheen one recognizes that the literal, historical sense of the Scripture symbolizes the real world of faith” (p. 16). This does not mean that the literal sense is at all invalid. Indeed, a literal interpretation is perfectly acceptable and reveals truth. Origen’s emphasis was simply different from that of Thomas Aquinas, not his message.

Here’s a quotation from St. Augustine in a letter to Jerome: “On my own part I confess to your charity that it is only to those books of Scripture which are now called canonical that I have learned to pay such honor and reverence as to believe most firmly that none of their writers has fallen into any error. And if in these books I meet anything which seems contrary to truth, I shall not hesitate to conclude either that the text is faulty, or that the translator has not expressed the meaning of the passage, or that I myself do not understand.”

Clement of Rome, the founder of the School of Alexandria, wrote, “The holy Scriptures which are given through the Holy Spirit…nothing iniquitous or falsified is written.”
religioustolerance.org/inerran1.htm

Irenaeus said that, “The Scriptures are indeed perfect.” truthsaves.org/articles/inerrant.shtml

The original Protestant reformers got their views on scriptural inerrancy from their Catholic upbringing. Here’s what they had to say:
truthsaves.org:
Luther states with respect to Scripture, “He who adheres to the Scriptures will find that they do not lie or deceive” (Preus, 379). Again, he states, “Scripture cannot err” (Preus, 379). And again, “The Scriptures have never erred” (Preus, 179). As stated by Robert Preus, “That the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and of supreme divine authority, was a conviction held by all Christians and Christian teachers through the first 1700 years of church history” (357). Calvin called Scripture an “inerring standard” (Gerstner, 391).
truthsaves.org/articles/inerrant.shtml

Here is a quotation from the Catholic Encyclopedia about Origen’s views of scriptural interpretation:
The principal passages on the inspiration, meaning, and interpretation of the Scriptures are preserved in Greek in the first fifteen chapters of the “Philocalia”. According to Origen, Scripture is inspired because it is the word and work of God. But, far from being an inert instrument, the inspired author has full possession of his faculties, he is conscious of what he is writing; he is physically free to deliver his message or not; he is not seized by a passing delirium like the pagan oracles, for bodily disorder, disturbance of the senses, momentary loss of reason are but so many proofs of the action of the evil spirit. Since Scripture is from God, it ought to have the distinctive characteristics of the Divine works: truth, unity, and fullness. The word of God cannot possibly be untrue; hence no errors or contradictions can be admitted in Scripture (In Joan., X, iii). The author of the Scriptures being one, the Bible is less a collection of books than one and the same book (Philoc., V, iv-vii), a perfect harmonious instrument (Philoc., VI, i-ii). But the most Divine note of Scripture is its fullness: “There is not in the Holy Books the smallest passage (cheraia) but reflects the wisdom of God” (Philoc., I, xxviii, cf. X, i). True there are imperfections in the Bible: antilogies, repetitions, want of continuity; but these imperfections become perfections by leading us to the allegory and the spiritual meaning (Philoc., X, i-ii).
newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm
The key sentence, here, is, “The word of God cannot possibly be untrue; hence no errors or contradictions can be admitted in Scripture.” Inerrancy is espoused. Origen, however, did not emphasize the literal meaning. He emphasized, and I expect preferred, the allegorical or typological interpretation of passages.

I read elsewhere, I’m not sure where, that Origen believed every verse of the Bible had at least one true allegorical or typological interpretation.

There are several passages in the Bible itself that suggest that it is inerrant. In my view, Matthew 5:18, of all the various inerrancy supporting scriptures, most strongly affirms this.

Keegan, Terence J., Interpreting the Bible: A Popular Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics, Paulist Press, New York, N.Y./Mahwah, N.J., 1985.
 
Hi, holdencaulfield!

…I liken these to those malcontent children in Jesus’ teaching: we played happy songs and you did not dance; we played sad songs and you did not cry…🤷

…they claim to want to serve our Lord Jesus Christ… but they want to do it on their terms–conforming Scriptures to the world rather than the world the the Scriptures… :bigyikes:

Maran atha!

Angel
Amen! Whatever happened to obedience? To veer from the magisterium is to found your beliefs on the sand of ego.

Christ’s peace.
 
The evidence of the Catholic Church position historically and the Early Church Fathers, as well as passages from the Bible itself, convince me that as a Christian, I should believe that the Bible is inerrant. So I do. See my above post, please, to view evidence supporting this position.

Many parts of the Church have liberalized a good deal in the 20th century, in conjunction with the immense liberalization of modern society that is going on. Most Christians don’t liberalize to the same extent as the non-Christians have, but they still have made many steps away from where the Church stood in the past. That accounts for the differences over inerrancy that exist today.

And the Catholic Church has, to this day, never explicitly rejected the historical church affirmation of complete Biblical inerrancy.
 
If you look at a map of the Holy Land as it was then, you see He had to go through Samaria. He lived in Galilee, and Samaria is between Galilee and Jerusalem. The road from Jerusalem to Galilee (and the towns of Tiberias, Magdala and Capernaum) runs right through Sychar, the town where the encounter with the Samarian woman occurred.
The Imperial Provinces: At the time of Jesus’ death, PontiusPilate was the roman governor of the imperial province of Judea, an area in the southern part of palestine where Jerusalem was located. As part of the roman empire, Judea was one of the four provinces of what is today the Holy Land. the other three imperial provinces were:
Galilee: A region in the northern part of Palestine. It was about 50 miles long and 30 miles wide, with many mountains and hills. It was generally rural. Jesus, though born in the southern town of bethlehem, spent most of his life up north in the region of Galilee. Most of the events in the Gospels take place in Galilee.
Samaria: the hill country north and west of Jerusalem.
Peria: An area east of Jordan and the Dead sea, less than 20 miles wide but nearly 60 miles long. This is the region where John the Baptist was beheaded in Herod’s castle. It was a common route from Galilee to Jerusalem, avoiding Samaria. Mathew says this is the route Jesus took on Palm Sunday. In the Old Testament, it is know at Gilead.

So no, they didn’t necessarily have to go through Samaria.
 
I don’t believe this thread is addressing the Bible as a whole, but primarily the Gospels.

From Dei Verbum 19:

Dei Verbum is pretty clear that the Gospels are historical. They tell us what Jesus really did and taught.

Is this a blanket statement that all of Scripture contains this level of historicity? No. But the Gospels certainly do (which is the topic of this thread).

Does this mean they are historical in the sense that many people think of history? Not necessarily. Many of us today want to equate “historically accurate” with “Jesus said these exact words in this exact order”. The teaching in the Gospels is the teaching of Jesus, and the events described really happened.

So we might legitimately say that the precise formulation of the Beatitudes is not a word-for-word transcription, but certainly the general meaning of it is the same. We might legitimately argue about the proper ordering of events (to an extent) but we cannot argue that the events took place.
I respectfully suggest you are misreading Dei Verbum. The Gospels inerrantly in that it “faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation.” But whether the conversation at the well happened at this or that town, or where Christ stood when he gave a particular sermon, or whether a couple sermons were put together in the Gospel for clarity’s sake has nothing to do with the truth of what Jesus “did and taught for their eternal salvation”. Besides, I don’t see the point (and don’t much care) of whether the conversation at the well went exactly as described, or whether the Sermon on the Mount was delivered in a valley. The point is what Jesus taught, and what he did for our salvation, not whether Mark correctly recorded the geolocation of every event.
 
The Imperial Provinces: At the time of Jesus’ death, PontiusPilate was the roman governor of the imperial province of Judea, an area in the southern part of palestine where Jerusalem was located. As part of the roman empire, Judea was one of the four provinces of what is today the Holy Land. the other three imperial provinces were:
Galilee: A region in the northern part of Palestine. It was about 50 miles long and 30 miles wide, with many mountains and hills. It was generally rural. Jesus, though born in the southern town of bethlehem, spent most of his life up north in the region of Galilee. Most of the events in the Gospels take place in Galilee.
Samaria: the hill country north and west of Jerusalem.
Peria: An area east of Jordan and the Dead sea, less than 20 miles wide but nearly 60 miles long. This is the region where John the Baptist was beheaded in Herod’s castle. It was a common route from Galilee to Jerusalem, avoiding Samaria. Mathew says this is the route Jesus took on Palm Sunday. In the Old Testament, it is know at Gilead.

So no, they didn’t necessarily have to go through Samaria.
Still, if you follow the road, you go through Samaria. You can still see traces of the road.

Now, if Jews didn’t go through Samaria regularly, why would there be a road going from Jerusalem, through Samaria, to Galilee? Who would travel that road?
 
Still, if you follow the road, you go through Samaria. You can still see traces of the road.

Now, if Jews didn’t go through Samaria regularly, why would there be a road going from Jerusalem, through Samaria, to Galilee? Who would travel that road?
Here is a first century map of the Holy Land. Perea is to the east of the Jordan river and the Dead Sea. To avoid Samaria, it was a common route. All I’m saying is it was possible to avoid Samaria when traveling from galilee to Jerusalem, not that He did.
 
Here is a first century map of the Holy Land. Perea is to the east of the Jordan river and the Dead Sea. To avoid Samaria, it was a common route. All I’m saying is it was possible to avoid Samaria when traveling from galilee to Jerusalem, not that He did.
But the main road runs from Jerusalem, through Samaria (and through the very town mentioned in the Gospels) to Galilee.

So again, if Jews did not use that road, why would it exist?

And one more point – Samaritans are mentioned several times in the Gospel. Jesus cured Samaritans (the only leper who returned to thank Him.) He told the parable of the Good Samaritan (a lesson against bigotry and prejudice.) He was not a bigot and did not shrink from dealing with Samaritans.
 
But the main road runs from Jerusalem, through Samaria (and through the very town mentioned in the Gospels) to Galilee.

So again, if Jews did not use that road, why would it exist?

And one more point – Samaritans are mentioned several times in the Gospel. Jesus cured Samaritans (the only leper who returned to thank Him.) He told the parable of the Good Samaritan (a lesson against bigotry and prejudice.) He was not a bigot and did not shrink from dealing with Samaritans.
You seem to be arguing for the sake of an argument. YOU stated that the Jews HAD to go through Samaria, this statement is incorrect as shown by the map. I never disputed that there was a road that lead through Samaria, only dispute I had was with your statment that they “had” to go through Samaria which in fact is not true. Again I state, Not that Jesus did.
 
Here is a first century map of the Holy Land. Perea is to the east of the Jordan river and the Dead Sea. To avoid Samaria, it was a common route. All I’m saying is it was possible to avoid Samaria when traveling from galilee to Jerusalem, not that He did.
Devout Jews of that time probably avoided Samaria, as Samaritans were considered unclean, having inter-married outside of the faith. However, Jesus could very well have gone there in a foreshadowing of salvation being offered to the gentiles. Since everything he did was instructive or revelatory, this is in line with his teaching.

Christ’s peace.
 
You seem to be arguing for the sake of an argument. YOU stated that the Jews HAD to go through Samaria, this statement is incorrect as shown by the map. I never disputed that there was a road that lead through Samaria, only dispute I had was with your statment that they “had” to go through Samaria which in fact is not true. Again I state, Not that Jesus did.
No, I’m not the guy who’s arguing for the sake of argument.

I’m saying that:
  1. The Gospel says He went through Samaria.
  2. The road from Jerusalem ran through Samaria.
  3. It ran through the very town where the Gospel says this incident took place.
  4. A Pharasee might go out of his way to avoid Samaria, but Jesus was not a Pharasee. He did not have an exaggerated attraction to evey jot and tittle – He spoke against that sort of thing. He also spoke against bigotry and prejudice and used Samaritans as examples of how these people could be as good as anyone.
The guy who is “arguing for the sake of argument” is the guy who is saying the Gospel is wrong and inventing stories and reasons to back that up.
 

It depends what the gospels mean to say that Jesus “really did”. The thing is, that​

  • what Jesus really did
    &
  • what the letter of the text describes Him as doing (including His teaching) are not the same thing.
It does not follow from a phrase such as “Jesus did X”, that the gospel is saying, “Jesus really did X, & if the media available in 2008 AD had been available then & there, in 30 AD or so, they would have recording Him doing it”.
You gave as as example the Sermon on the Mount, but you don’t talk about the passage at hand. In talking with the Samaritan woman, Jesus is doing two important things.
  1. He is talking to a woman
  2. He is talking to a Samaritan
    We can’t draw the lessons of equality from this passage if it didn’t actually happen. The fact that Jesus went into Samaria drives the point home even further, making the lesson even more poignant. If Jesus didn’t go to Samaria, the the Gospel writer was dishonest.
The gospel writers wrote all sorts of things about Jesus - they record the accusation that He was a blasphemer. It may be a true statement of what someone else stated; IOW, it may be an accurate quotation of that other person - it does not follow that because the words of the quotation are accurate, the meaning of what is quoted must be accurate.

Neither does the statement “Jesus did/said X” have to amount to a statement of a fact; it may be true He said or did X - or it may not.
You are making an error in not differentiating what the GOSPEL says about Jesus, and what the Gospel says SOMEONE ELSE says about Jesus. Certainly most of the characters of the Bible are fallible, but the Gospels are inerrant. Similarly, I’m quoting you, but that doesn’t mean I believe you.
As for John 4 - I don’t know whether it’s stating a fact about the earthly life of Jesus, or not.
John 4 does not give someone else’s quotation. It is true.
 
The Bible is not a history text.
This is often glibly repeated without adequately explaining it. Sure, the Gospels probably miss some important historical facts, and so they would not be useful to someone interested in that particular event, but what is included is true
 
This is often glibly repeated without adequately explaining it. Sure, the Gospels probably miss some important historical facts, and so they would not be useful to someone interested in that particular event, but what is included is true
It depends on the event. For example, dating Christ’s life is difficult because the Gospel writers relied on memory of who was the Governor of Syria, and so on, at the time. There, they could err. But that’s not what they were inspired to do – give precise dates and so on. They were inspired to transmit Christ’s message – and when they tell us He spoke with a Samaritan Woman, that is right on message. Clearly, that event happened – even if we don’t know which year.
 
It depends on the event. For example, dating Christ’s life is difficult because the Gospel writers relied on memory of who was the Governor of Syria, and so on, at the time. There, they could err. But that’s not what they were inspired to do – give precise dates and so on. They were inspired to transmit Christ’s message – and when they tell us He spoke with a Samaritan Woman, that is right on message. Clearly, that event happened – even if we don’t know which year.
Hi, vern humphrey!

Why can’t Biblical scholars see this simple truth? 👍

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, vern humphrey!

Why can’t Biblical scholars see this simple truth? 👍

Maran atha!

Angel
Biblical scholars can see the simple truth. But Biblical “scholars” cannot.

The answer I gave is straight Catholic doctrine – inspired writers cannot err in the matter of their intentions.

But many people espouse what I call “Garage Sale Theology,” which is based on the unspoken assumption that the Bible was just discovered (perhaps purchased at a garage sale) and the “scholar” is the only person who has ever read it, and no one else knows anything about it.
 
Biblical scholars can see the simple truth. But Biblical “scholars” cannot.

The answer I gave is straight Catholic doctrine – inspired writers cannot err in the matter of their intentions.

But many people espouse what I call “Garage Sale Theology,” which is based on the unspoken assumption that the Bible was just discovered (perhaps purchased at a garage sale) and the “scholar” is the only person who has ever read it, and no one else knows anything about it.
Amen! 👍 Ain’t it the truth!
 
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