Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[benedictus2]

rev_kevin:
1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. (Ephesians (RSV) 4)
And when Paul wrote that letter to the Church in Ephesus, he was writing to a Church the belonged to the Catholic Church. The Church in Ephesus was one with the Church in Antioch, Corinth, Rome, etc, because they all had the same doctrine.

The Church in Ephesus did not make up it’s own set of beliefs based on the Bible because they did not even have the Bible then.

Unity is what we all should strive for, this unity is not possible without knowing the Truth that Christ and his apostles have given us. This Truth is the Church:

The Truth is not the Church, the Church has the Truth because she was founded by Truth Himself.

Unity will only be achieved if all the Churches like the Churches in Acts and the early Christians believe in all the same doctrines and under one shepherd.

15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1Timothy (RSV) 3)

Excellent quote. And the Church that Paul was referring to in that letter was the Catholic Church for back then, there was only One Church. The Christian denominations started only one thousand five hundred years later.

God only has one household, not several households.

These seem to fit a lot of Christian denominations.

No it doesn’t. When Paul wrote that, he was referring to only one Church - the Catholic Church. The Christian denominations were non existent back then.

 

[benedictus2]

Sorry bud, but now coffee is off, could we make it a cold beer instead. I need it. By the way I have to say I feel it is my fault about Rev Kev comparing The Church to the 2nd person of the Trinity which is Jesus.

The Church is Jesus Christ. we know that because he told us that. Now the question is when Jesus was here on earth was he the Church in a human body?

Nowhere in the Bible does Christ say He is the Church. Your arguments are the height of illogicality.

Now when he rose from the dead and was being persecuted by Saul did he say saul was persecuting HIM or the Church? Did Saul have to persecute him in person (human form) to persecute him. OR could Saul persecute him in another way?

Is the Church human and Divine? Is Jesus human and divine?

Rinnie, when Christ said to Peter “upon this Rock I will build my Church”, does that mean he is building Himself on Peter?

When we Paul speaks of the Church being the bride of Christ, since you say that the Church is Jesus Himself, does that mean the Jesus is married to Himself?

Your exegesis has gone beyond the absurd.

Bottom line you are pedling heresy. And everyone now knows that for a fact.

You are like the protestants who take 1 teeny weeny bit of scripture and make a whole doctrine out of it even though other passages contradict your interpretation.

You are bordering on pantheism.

 

[joe370]

Well, just as the founder of every protestant church can be identified, surely the founder of the CC, in union with Rome, if in fact it is not Jesus, can be identified. In the case of each and every PC, it can be proven that Jesus was not the founder, and if the same is true about the CC, all that is left for a protestant to do, is to accurately identify the name of the man or men that founded the CC in union with Rome. That would certainly answer the question: Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

Any suggestions my non-Catholic brothers and sisters?

I am starting this thread due to an invitation I extended to Rev Kevin to discuss his claim Jesus did not start the Catholic Church.

To avoid derailing the thread, please avoid discussions on Mary, Eucharist, Confession and other Catholic doctrines that have no bearing on the topic unless you can establish relevance.

It is important to keep to this so that we can have a truly fruitful discussion. We did that on the question of “Is Peter the Rock” and we got somewhere in a fairly short time by keeping the topic in mind.

To keep the opening argument short, I say Jesus started the Catholic Church based on Matthew 16:18, John 21 and Acts.
**
Peace and Joy of Christ to anyone who participates in the discussion and to all those who visit this thread!

May the Holy Spirit enlighten our minds and our hearts!
**

 

[benedictus2]

Well, just as the founder of every protestant church can be identified, surely the founder of the CC, in union with Rome, if in fact it is not Jesus, can be identified. In the case of each and every PC, it can be proven that Jesus was not the founder, and if the same is true about the CC, all that is left for a protestant to do, is to accurately identify the name of the man or men that founded the CC in union with Rome. That would certainly answer the question: Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

Any suggestions my non-Catholic brothers and sisters?

That is the point. We can identify exactly who started the protestant Churches and exactly when and that was hundreds of years after the death of the apostles.

 

[joe370]

That is the point. We can identify exactly who started the protestant Churches and exactly when and that was hundreds of years after the death of the apostles.

I have been asking protestants this question ever since I came home to Rome; no takers though…

 

[benedictus2]

I have been asking protestants this question ever since I came home to Rome; no takers though…

Yes, evasion is what happens.

 

[joe370]

Kevin, let’s keep it simple; just as the founder of every protestant church can be identified, surely the founder of the CC, in union with Rome, if in fact it is not Jesus, can be identified as well. In the case of each and every PC, it can be proven that Jesus was not the founder, and if the same is true about the CC, all that is left for you to do, is to accurately identify the name of the man or men that founded the CC in union with Rome and when. That would certainly answer the question: Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? Your answer?

Hello Benedictus 2.

The Roman Catholic Church DID NOT start with Jesus telling Peter that he was His rock, and His (Jesus’) Church would be built on him ( Peter ). Peter was just an ordinary fisherman following Jesus at that time. Neither was he baptized, nor was he filled with the Holy Spirit. This Scripture has to be read in the CONTEXT of the preceding and proceeding Scriptures - ( Matthew 16:13 to 20 ). What Jesus was telling Peter was that The Revelation that He ( Jesus ) was the Son of God, was given to Peter by Our Father God in Heaven - or else he ( Peter ) would have never known that He ( Jesus ) is the Son of the Living God. It is not by man but by God, that the Son is Revealed unto us.

The Greek word commonly translated as “church” in English Bibles is ekklēsia (evkklhsi,a). BDAG indicates that ekklēsia means “a casual gathering of people, an assemblage, gathering,”and “people with shared belief, community, congregation.”4 It notes that “the term” ekklēsia“ apparently became popular among Christians in Greek-speaking areas for chiefly two reasons: to affirm continuity with Israel through use of a term found in Gk. translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, and to allay any suspicion, esp. in political circles, that Christians were a disorderly group.”5 The primary Hebrew equivalent of ekklēsia is qahal (lh’q’). BDB indicates that qahal means “assembly, convocation, congregation.”6 In the Greek Septuagint, or ancient translation of the Hebrew Scriptures produced approximately three centuries before the Messiah, the term qahal is usually translated as ekklēsia, the same term appearing in the Apostolic Scriptures (New Testament) translated into English as “church.”7 What is important to note is that the ekklēsia, or congregation/assembly of the Septuagint, is Israel—and the Apostles’ usage of ekklēsia is intended to connect one back to the qahal Yisrael (laer"f.yI lh;q.) of the Old Testament.

In Acts 7:23-39, Stephen specifically equates the ekklēsia or “church” as being Israel:
“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, a prophet shall the Lord your
God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church [ekklēsia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt” (Acts 7:37-39, KJV).

What is interesting is how the King James Version translators rendered ekklēsia as
“church” in Acts 7:38, whereas most other versions read “the congregation in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38, NASU; cf. NKJV, RSV, NRSV) or “assembly in the desert” (NIV).
This “wilderness church,” as we might call it, was Ancient Israel.
The proper rendering of the word ekklēsia is dependent on context. However, the very
fact that ekklēsia can and does mean in many places “an assembly of Israelites” should instigate some thinking for your average Christian—and whether or not “the Church” is an entity separate from Israel. The early Believers understood ekklēsia as being connected to the assembly of Israel.

 

[benedictus2]

As my fellow Protestants brothers and sister say:: AMEN!!

Your fellow Protestant brothers and sisters? I thought you said you are Catholic?

 

[joe370]

Your fellow Protestant brothers and sisters? I thought you said you are Catholic?

Hey benedictus, just wondering what’s wrong with saying, fellow protestant brothers and sisters…? Maybe I missed something…

 

[JVSantos]

rev,
After 26 pages of this thread,
Who do you think started the Catholic Church?
Please answer once and for all.

 

[benedictus2]

Hey benedictus, just wondering what’s wrong with saying, fellow protestant brothers and sisters…? Maybe I missed something…

To say fellow Christians would be correct because we acknowledge that they are Christians.

But the term fellow denotes a common denominator as far as I know.

So we wold say fellow Catholics but not fellow Protestants unless one is Protestant as well. Or we would not say fellow Europeans if we are Americans.

 

[benedictus2]

rev,
Who do you think started the Catholic Church?
Please answer once and fo all.

A propos to that:

Rev Kevin, what do you think happened to the Church that was founded in Acts? Where is it now?

 

[joe370]

To say fellow Christians would be correct because we acknowledge that they are Christians.

But the term fellow denotes a common denominator as far as I know.

So we wold say fellow Catholics but not fellow Protestants unless one is Protestant as well. Or we would not say fellow Europeans if we are Americans.

That makes sense…

 

[Irish_Polock]

And when Paul wrote that letter to the Church in Ephesus, he was writing to a Church the belonged to the Catholic Church. The Church in Ephesus was one with the Church in Antioch, Corinth, Rome, etc, because they all had the same doctrine.

The Church in Ephesus did not make up it’s own set of beliefs based on the Bible because they did not even have the Bible then.

The Truth is not the Church, the Church has the Truth because she was founded by Truth Himself.

Unity will only be achieved if all the Churches like the Churches in Acts and the early Christians believe in all the same doctrines and under one shepherd.

Excellent quote. And the Church that Paul was referring to in that letter was the Catholic Church for back then, there was only One Church. The Christian denominations started only one thousand five hundred years later.

God only has one household, not several households.

No it doesn’t. When Paul wrote that, he was referring to only one Church - the Catholic Church. The Christian denominations were non existent back then.

Benedictus2, just to clarify; the post you had quoted was mostly of my doing. The Reverend’s comments where in the sea-foam color. Apparently, he had not “quoted” me correctly to show the distinction in his post.

A reference to my actual post for context.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7500278&postcount=291

Please inquire for any further clarity.

 

[joe370]

That is so true! No other institution in the world can compare with the Catholic Church when it comes to works of charity, but sadly that is glossed over to make way for the negative…

*I get sick and tired of these silly tirades about the CC being rich and full of money.

Each year every country in the world has a collection which goes to Rome. I remember a few years ago we collected just under R1 000 000 which was sent to Rome. Do you know how much we got back? R38 000 000 to help the poor! No other institution in the world can compare with the Catholic Church when it comes to works of charity. The hospitals it runs throughout the world, the schools, clinics, centres for the aged (17 500 - I remember that one), etc etc.

Many people leave money to the Church in their will. Over the years great artists have given of their talent to the Vatican (Michael Angelo) etc. It is priceless but all for the glory of God. The Pope lives in an apartment which cannot be considered luxurious by any means.

The Church reaches out to all peoples irrespective of race or religion.

*

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2, just to clarify; the post you had quoted was mostly of my doing. The Reverend’s comments where in the sea-foam color. Apparently, he had not “quoted” me correctly to show the distinction in his post.

A reference to my actual post for context.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7500278&postcount=291

Please inquire for any further clarity.

Oh Okay, we’re saying the same thing then.
I think I did comment also on the text in green which would have been his comment.

 

[joe370]

Roy5, you said:

Okay. Christ started a movement which evolved into the Christian church. Where I have trouble is the dogma that this was/is the Catholic Church amd none other, that other Christians are at best separated brothers and sisters, at worse rebellious heretics.

I am trying to keep this simple: So you believe, when Jesus said, I will build my church, what He had in mind was all of the churches, regardless of denomination, that we see in the world today?

Could you possibly give me the name of the man, or men that founded the CC in union with Rome, and when this event happened? No one else will.

 

[benedictus2]

Here it says that Christ built a Christian Church first.

No Christ did not build a Christian Church. He simply built a Church. And then the followers began to be called Christian after Him. It was not till the foundation in Antioch that his followers were called Christians.

It was firstly Catholic, i.e. there were already different foundations made in several other cities and all belonged to the one Church.

Then authoritative men NAMED it the Catholic Church.

No the authoritative men, called it what it always was.

It would be like someone starting an international company and having branches in New York, New Delhi, Helsinki, Manila, Hongkong, Johannesburg.
This company was always called ABC. But then later on, they decided that they would call it ABC International. It has always been international but now they have it next to their name as well.

It was made up of ALL Christians not Catholic because there were no Catholics then but Christians and Christians are still around,

The only Christians back then were Catholics. There were no Methodists, or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Baptists. They simply all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

Catholic, Methodist, Baptist and so on are all Christians.

But back in Acts there was no such thing a Methodists or Baptists only Catholics.

We are all from the Christian Church, that have different names.

No we don’t. We do not form one Christian Church. If that were so, we would have the same set of beliefs. Did you not say that a church is a group of people with the same beliefs? Since we do not believe in the same things (bar a few doctrines depending on which Church you talk about), then no we are not one Christian Church.

Catholic, meaning universal, was the first name because Christianity is universal throughout the world and now by many different Christian denominations.

No. Catholic meaning univervisal was the only name because there was only One Catholic Church. Then the other churches stared one thousand five hundred years later. And they are different churches because they have different beliefs.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Oh Okay, we’re saying the same thing then.
I think I did comment also on the text in green which would have been his comment.

Yes, we are saying the exact same fact. In hindsight though, I do tend to capitalize the T’s in truth in in inappropriate places far to often. I am sure this could lead to ambiguities in what I might be trying to convey.

I can a least thank you for making me aware of this.

Thank you Benedictus2.

God be with you.

 

[po18guy]

Crickets.