Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

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rev_kevin said:
It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.
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You appear to support division within the Body of Christ. Is division (“factions”) within the Body of Christ either desirable, or justifiable? If so, by whose authority?
 
rev_kevin said:
How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” NO. Jesus did not come to start a Church. He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.
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Jesus did not come to build His church??? :confused: Jesus said: “I will build my church…” and said to His fledgling church leaders: you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Kevin, you seem to be dodging such a simple question and I don’t know why.

Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the catholic church in union with Rome, and when?

By refusing to answer such a simple question, we can only surmise one thing…
 
Gosh, I can’t keep up with all this. But let me reiterate.
Code: 
**Jesus was not as interested in a church as in spreading the gospel of love, reconciliation and peace**. Rather soon, a missionary effort by his disciples led to the organization of churches, and gradually the larger churches came to have special influence. It was quite natural that the two largest and most powerful cities, Constantinople and Rome, would occupy central places in this network of churches.
** With the coming of Islam, many of the early churches lost their clout**, such as Jerusalem, Ephesus, Antioch, etc. And with the fall of Constantinople to the Muslims even the influence of that city diminished. The city left to exercise power, in the West, anyway, was Rome. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Rome should be the center of Christendom. Actually, there are even scholars who insist that Peter never went to Rome. In Romans 16, for example, Paul doesn’t include Peter in all of his salutations.But I won’t argue that because I’m not prepared to, nor do I care.

** I have been in Rome, and when I have had an audience (with thousands of others) with the Pope I can close my eyes and imagine 2000 years ago,** when crowds gathered yelling Viva le Papa - meaning the Emperor, not the Pope. The emperor was seen as the vicar of God. Ditto the Pope. When I saw Pius XII years ago, he was carried around by Swiss guards high and lifted up. I wondered even then (teenager) how much emperor worship influenced modern-day adulation of the Pope??? Don’t know, but do wonder - and how much the old emperor cult is mirrored in today’s position of the Pope. Just wondering…

** Those who believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and all the rest are schismatic and/or heretical - that’s what they believe.** Like devout Muslims believe the riocks cried out 'Allah be praised" when Muhammad was born. Nothing can be done to change minds already firmly made up. As for me, I believe Christ sought to promote love, humility and peace. The record of the CC on these three matters is debatable, which also casts doubt upon the idea that Christ is with it today, whether or not he founded it. Why wasn’t it, for example, protected against the priestly sex scandal? Because men run it. And I tend to believe that men (human beings with their weaknesses) ran it from the beginning, which helps explain why there are so many divisions, so many serious mistakes in its history as well as in our present time.
But God bless the Catholic Church and every other church, and all people whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May we make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.
 
Hey Roy5…
But God bless the Catholic Church and every other church, and all people whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May we make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.
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Amen to that brother. 👍 Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the following question. Kevin refuses to and I don’t know why:

Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the catholic church in union with Rome, and when? 🙂
 
Roy5 said:
Code: 
**Jesus was not as interested in a church as in spreading the gospel of love, reconciliation and peace**. Rather soon, a missionary effort by his disciples led to the organization of churches, and gradually the larger churches came to have special influence. It was quite natural that the two largest and most powerful cities, Constantinople and Rome, would occupy central places in this network of churches.
** With the coming of Islam, many of the early churches lost their clout**, such as Jerusalem, Ephesus, Antioch, etc. And with the fall of Constantinople to the Muslims even the influence of that city diminished. The city left to exercise power, in the West, anyway, was Rome. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Rome should be the center of Christendom. Actually, there are even scholars who insist that Peter never went to Rome. In Romans 16, for example, Paul doesn’t include Peter in all of his salutations.But I won’t argue that because I’m not prepared to, nor do I care.

** I have been in Rome, and when I have had an audience (with thousands of others) with the Pope I can close my eyes and imagine 2000 years ago,** when crowds gathered yelling Viva le Papa - meaning the Emperor, not the Pope. The emperor was seen as the vicar of God. Ditto the Pope. When I saw Pius XII years ago, he was carried around by Swiss guards high and lifted up. I wondered even then (teenager) how much emperor worship influenced modern-day adulation of the Pope??? Don’t know, but do wonder - and how much the old emperor cult is mirrored in today’s position of the Pope. Just wondering…

** Those who believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and all the rest are schismatic and/or heretical - that’s what they believe.** Like devout Muslims believe the riocks cried out 'Allah be praised" when Muhammad was born. Nothing can be done to change minds already firmly made up. As for me, I believe Christ sought to promote love, humility and peace. The record of the CC on these three matters is debatable, which also casts doubt upon the idea that Christ is with it today, whether or not he founded it. Why wasn’t it, for example, protected against the priestly sex scandal? Because men run it. And I tend to believe that men (human beings with their weaknesses) ran it from the beginning, which helps explain why there are so many divisions, so many serious mistakes in its history as well as in our present time.
Code: 
But God bless the Catholic Church and every other church, and all people whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May we make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.
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Don’t you think that Christ chose and appointed men of His Church to spread the Gospel? Christ clearly stated He was building His Church…

Were the Scribes and Pharisees any less men than what fills His Church today? Why did Christ tell the people to do whatsoever they, that sat on the chair of Moses, said to them?

Christ knew, and knows, all men and He knew He had chosen men and appointed them over His Church.
 
rev_kevin said:
How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” NO. Jesus did not come to start a Church. He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.
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Is this not an odd thing for a bible-toting Christian to say?

“Christianity” is a man-made term applied to describe the thought and action of those who claim to follow Christ. It describes a philosophy, whereas the Church is a body of believers, who profess that philosophy. “Christianity” is nebulous. The Church is solid. In any event, from scripture, you should know that Christ came to found a Church.

Let’s disregard Matthew 16 for now. Let us forget allegiances and rivalries and teams and simply listen to our Savior:

Jesus in Matthew 18:15-17: “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican”.

Did Jesus command us to consider “Christianity” in dealing with this situation? No! He commanded us to take it to the Church. “Christianity” was divided by the dispute, and Jesus gives us the solution: The Church has the last word.

Listen to Saint Paul in 1 Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Did Saint Paul teach that “Christianity” was the pillar and ground of the truth? No! Paul teaches us that the Church is the pillar and ground.

In my view, you see Christ more as a concept and less as a man - more as a philosopher and less as the Divine head of a united earthly Body. That’s my view, which I am sure you will vehemently disagree with.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.
 
No Kev, Christ said, “Follow Me,and I’ll make you fishers of men” And they did and He showed them how. And those “fishers of men” are the Apostles.
 
Roy5 said:
Gosh, I can’t keep up with all this. But let me reiterate.
Code: 
**Jesus was not as interested in a church as in spreading the gospel of love, reconciliation and peace**.
Click to expand...
Odd it is then, that He established a Church, gave it all authority on earth, and sent its founding members to the ends of the earth to proclaim that Gospel message. The Church is Christ’s Body. The message is integral to that Body. If you separate the message from the the body, you end up with a cadaver.
Roy5 said:
** There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Rome should be the center of Christendom.**
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Well, Paul went there. His bones are there to this day. He wrote his greatest work, Romans, to them. Nothing in the bible? Or, is it how you interpret what is in the bible?
Roy5 said:
** I have been in Rome, and when I have had an audience (with thousands of others) with the Pope I can close my eyes and imagine** 2000 years ago, when crowds gathered yelling Viva le Papa - meaning the Emperor, not the Pope. The emperor was seen as the vicar of God.
Click to expand...
This tells of a pre-existing bias, does it not? Jesus tells us to stay awake, to keep our eyes open. Worship? Peter’s shadow was used, with faith, to heal the sick. Handkerchiefs touched to Paul were used, with faith, to heal the sick. Does that mean that Peter and Paul were worshipped? No. Their presence among the faith was celebrated, however.

I am unfamiliar with the Emperor being exalted as “Papa” Do you have a source for this claim? And, if you really wonder about the Church, have you done anything at all to investigate further? Does not a search for the truth demand this?

Again, are you judging by appearances alone? What, that the Church teaches, do you find off-putting? Does it parallel what Caesar taught?
Roy5 said:
** Those who believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and all the rest are schismatic and/or heretical - that’s what they believe.**
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Do outsiders get to define what an organization is and what it believes, or does the organization itself have any say in this?

Roy5 says:
Roy5 said:
** As for me, I believe Christ sought to promote love, humility and peace.**
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Jesus said:
"JESUS:
“I have come not to bring peace, but a sword” “Because of me, father will be divided against son, and mother from daughter, mother in law from daughter in law”
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Peace, harmony? No. Jesus is a sign that will be contradicted - His Body, the Church, is no different. Are we speaking of the same Jesus?
Roy5 said:
** The record of the CC on these three matters is debatable, which also casts doubt upon the idea that Christ is with it today, whether or not he founded it.**
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Simeon the prophet: “This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that is contradicted”
Roy5 said:
Why wasn’t it, for example, protected against the priestly sex scandal?
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It is protected from teaching error, not behavioral error in her members. We see that from the Acts of the Apostles and from the Letters. We see that from the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Roy5 said:
** Because men run it. And I tend to believe that men (human beings with their weaknesses) ran it from the beginning, which helps explain why there are so many divisions, so many serious mistakes in its history as well as in our present time. **
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Which is why Jesus teaches us to “deny yourself, take up your cross, then come, follow Me” Some are neither denying themselves, nor taking up their crosses. This is not a new problem.
 
Somehow that sex scandal must come up. I suppose the fact it happens so much elsewhere and so little in the CC it would be a big deal;)
 
Roy5 said:
** Those who believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and all the rest are schismatic and/or heretical - that’s what they believe…**

Problem with that is, Catholics know better. 😉
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Roy5 said:
** I have been in Rome, and when I have had an audience (with thousands of others) with the Pope I can close my eyes and imagine 2000 years ago,** when crowds gathered yelling Viva le Papa - meaning the Emperor, not the Pope. The emperor was seen as the vicar of God. Ditto the Pope. When I saw Pius XII years ago, he was carried around by Swiss guards high and lifted up. I wondered even then (teenager) how much emperor worship influenced modern-day adulation of the Pope??? Don’t know, but do wonder - and how much the old emperor cult is mirrored in today’s position of the Pope. Just wondering…
Click to expand...
I am curious, could you please provide information that will support your claim Roy.

Also, it is “Viva IL Papa”, “LE” would be the feminine plural definite article in Italian.
 
po18guy said:
Is this not an odd thing for a bible-toting Christian to say?

“Christianity” is a man-made term applied to describe the thought and action of those who claim to follow Christ. It describes a philosophy, whereas the Church is a body of believers, who profess that philosophy. “Christianity” is nebulous. The Church is solid. In any event, from scripture, you should know that Christ came to found a Church.

Let’s disregard Matthew 16 for now. Let us forget allegiances and rivalries and teams and simply listen to our Savior:

Jesus in Matthew 18:15-17: “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican”.

Did Jesus command us to consider “Christianity” in dealing with this situation? No! He commanded us to take it to the Church. “Christianity” was divided by the dispute, and Jesus gives us the solution: The Church has the last word.

Listen to Saint Paul in 1 Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Did Saint Paul teach that “Christianity” was the pillar and ground of the truth? No! Paul teaches us that the Church is the pillar and ground.

In my view, you see Christ more as a concept and less as a man - more as a philosopher and less as the Divine head of a united earthly Body. That’s my view, which I am sure you will vehemently disagree with.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.
Click to expand...
*Thank you for your excellent exposition.

Nowadays when a company is founded there would be a logo and mission statement. Back then when Jesus founded the Church he was talking about His Church. Later as heresies set in (and this happened almost from the very beginning) The Church identified itself as The Catholic Church (I am not sure exactly when although references to the Church being Catholic occurred towards the end of the first century).

So yes, it was “the Church” in the beginning.

:):):)*
 
po18guy said:
Odd it is then, that He established a Church, gave it all authority on earth, and sent its founding members to the ends of the earth to proclaim that Gospel message. The Church is Christ’s Body. The message is integral to that Body. If you separate the message from the the body, you end up with a cadaver.

Well, Paul went there. His bones are there to this day. He wrote his greatest work, Romans, to them. Nothing in the bible? Or, is it how you interpret what is in the bible?

This tells of a pre-existing bias, does it not? Jesus tells us to stay awake, to keep our eyes open. Worship? Peter’s shadow was used, with faith, to heal the sick. Handkerchiefs touched to Paul were used, with faith, to heal the sick. Does that mean that Peter and Paul were worshipped? No. Their presence among the faith was celebrated, however.

I am unfamiliar with the Emperor being exalted as “Papa” Do you have a source for this claim? And, if you really wonder about the Church, have you done anything at all to investigate further? Does not a search for the truth demand this?

Again, are you judging by appearances alone? What, that the Church teaches, do you find off-putting? Does it parallel what Caesar taught?

Do outsiders get to define what an organization is and what it believes, or does the organization itself have any say in this?

Roy5 says: Jesus said: Peace, harmony? No. Jesus is a sign that will be contradicted - His Body, the Church, is no different. Are we speaking of the same Jesus?

Simeon the prophet: “This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that is contradicted”

It is protected from teaching error, not behavioral error in her members. We see that from the Acts of the Apostles and from the Letters. We see that from the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Which is why Jesus teaches us to “deny yourself, take up your cross, then come, follow Me” Some are neither denying themselves, nor taking up their crosses. This is not a new problem.
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*This is the truth. Your responses are concise and accurate and Roy5 and anyone else should pause and take in the responses to each of the titles…that is if they are interested in truth.👍
 
Irish_Polock said:
I am curious, could you please provide information that will support your claim Roy.

Also, it is “Viva IL Papa”, “LE” would be the feminine plural definite article in Italian.
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*Le is French for singular masculine. I didn’t know that le was also used in Italian.:confused:
:):)🙂
*
 
Hi, Benedictus2,

Great post! 👍

What we are witnessing is an incredible effort to strain out a gnat while truly swallowing a camel-size lie. Christ founded His Church on Peter - now, just trace Peter’s successors and you will end up with Benedict XVI. Not to press a point, but the organization he is with has its own web site - in fact, here it is in Englis: vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Really Benedictus2, he has yet to raise a defense to his ideas - he just keeps repeating the same illogical statements. As far as I see he will repeat them all the way up to the While Throne, and then he will sing a new tune.

God bless
benedictus2 said:
Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God?

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch?

Nothing could be more absurd.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that.

**Reality precedes the term.

**Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto.

**And the reality was, the Church was always Catholic and always Christian. Back then they mean one and the same thing as our Lord intended.
**
So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but **back then Christian = Catholic. **
That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics.
Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants.
He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.

Read the Gospels. You will find out that Christ said and did much, much more than that.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed.
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As a young person, we were always told by the priest that Jesus started the Catholic church, and the other churches were started by men such as martin Luther, therefore the catholic church is the only true church because it is the only one started by God.
 
Hi, Roy5,

You never fail to disappooint me! Without a doubt, when it comes to spinning out an idea filled with anecdotal accounts and skimping on data - I know your post will fill meet the challenge! 😃

So, let’s see what you have done this time…
Roy5 said:
Gosh, I can’t keep up with all this. But let me reiterate.

Honest Roy5 reiteration is not nearly as necessary as a solid idea.
Code: 
**Jesus was not as interested in a church as in spreading the gospel of love, reconciliation and peace**.
Actually, Roy5, He founded His Church on Peter - and it is through this Church that His Graces through the Sacraments flow. The Church is His Bride - and not an incidental arrangement. In fact, St. Paul calls the Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church…) the bullwark and foundation of the Truth (1Tim 3:15)

** With the coming of Islam, many of the early churches lost their clout**,

Islam’s founder and history is rooted in bloody murder and conquest. The Catholic Church’s founder and history is rooted in love and sacrifice. And, yes, Roy5, there are some scholars out there that will say anything - the challenge is to look for the evidence that supports the position and most scholars move with this. Merely not saying something does not mean it did not happen.

** I have been in Rome, and when I have had an audience (with thousands of others) with the Pope I can close my eyes and imagine 2000 years ago,

Enjoy your memories, Roy5 - the snag comes in when you inject your imagination.

**

** Those who believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and all the rest are schismatic and/or heretical - that’s what they believe.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ founded His Church on Peter - and you can read all about it in Matt 16:18. The challenge is to trace Peter and his successors through history and see where you end up. (Hint: the last successor is Benedict XVI!) The Catholic Church does not teach that all the rest are “…schismatic and/or heretical…” this is the classic teaching or misteaching from Roy5.

**

But God bless the Catholic Church and every other church, and all people whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May we make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Did you know the Charles Dickens character, “Tiny Tim” would say, “God bless us every one!” God bless you, too, Roy5
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Hi, LaFemmeRed,

Welcome to CAF! 🙂

I think you will find this list to be a real source of inspiraiton and wisdom.

Hmmmmmmmmm I’d say your priest taught you the Truth!

God bless
la_femme_red said:
As a young person, we were always told by the priest that Jesus started the Catholic church, and the other churches were started by men such as martin Luther, therefore the catholic church is the only true church because it is the only one started by God.
Click to expand...
 
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