Did Luther mean to start Protestantism?

[IanGE]

Hi, IanGE,
As best as I can tell - EVERY Protestant Church rejects the idea that Peter was the leader of the Apostles and the Church founded by Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church, and, that the current successor of Peter is Pope Benedict XVI. So, let’s take this big item and work with it from Scripture. Here are a baker’s dozen references as to why the Catholic Church teaches this:
I don’t think ANY Protestant disputes Peter’s leadership of the apostles. As to being the head of the church in ROME is another matter. Peter was martyred in Rome in AD64; at that time the church was centred in Jerusalem with James as Head of the Church. Jerusalem was flattened 6 years later and yet another diaspora scattered all in Jerusalem, Jews and the few Christians in Church headquarters. The church MAY have moved to Rome in AD 70-ish and met in the catacombs which were the only places large enough to hold Christian meetings. And of course, Christians, by then, had no fear of death.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
**Sorry, Mon Ami, You missed out V.30 -31: “But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out “Lord, save me!” Immediately, Jesus reached out His hand caught him. “You of little faith” He said, “why did you doubt?” This verse puts Peter, with his humanity, at the very top of my favourite Saints
**
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
This verse, in the original Greek, is one of the most enigmatic: "Thou art Petros (Name, masculine) and upon this Petra (rock, feminine) I will build MY ecclesia.” OK, Jesus is the Head, but I don’t see the reference to the apostles being its foundation?
Anyway I always see Christianity as an upside down organisational tree. In business if the head dies, the company simply replaces him and carries on. In the church, if there is no Jesus the the whole of Christianity collapses; But when the Pope dies, white smoke and off we jolly well go again.

• and, if you want more, just go to this link: scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

But, don’t stop there! As you know, St John advises us that Scripture does not tell us all that Jesus said and did. So we need to look at additional sources that go beyond the Apostolic Age which ended in about 100AD. At this point we enter the time of the Early Church Fathers (ECF).

If there was ever a time when there was one major crisis after another in the young Church - this is it. Considering all of the disargeements - arguing about who was in charge would have surely come up. If your position was valid - then this young Church now under serious persecution by the Roman Empire - would have disitegrated, or splintered in to the thousands of sects we see in Protestantism Let’s take a look at some of the ECF’s writings. In Part 2 I hope to address this…

Continued…

**Yes, the Gospels clearly state that Peter was boss apostle, but for the life of me I cannot understand why then they never chose him as head of the Church in Jerusalem? I fully accept the Pope as ELECTED head of the Roman church, but why do they have to claim they are successors of the Seat of St. Peter when he was never a Bishop and never had a cathedra. Not in scripture, not in Church history. Is this claim a spiritual link with Peter and through him to Jesus 2000 years ago? in this day, anybody can be infilled with the Holy Spirit, have the Father and Jesus make their home with and in them, and have the AUTHORITY to use the Name of Jesus in infallible prophecy and in power and in prayer. ASK and you shall receive. Are the leaders of the Church afraid that The Holy Spirit will diminish their powers? NO NO NO: Jesus (Whose Church it is) and the Holy Spirit are there to assist all, especially leaders and Popes. The Lord, for some reason, seems to want humans through whom to act: He NEEDS a Pope, He NEEDS leaders, so long as they acknowledge HIM as boss and keep an ear cocked for His guidance.
I expect I’ll get another 10 or 50 naughty-boy points, but my boss and friend, Jesus, was scourged for all of us and continues to be scourged by open scorn of Him, His Holy Spirit and the gifts they hold out to all people. **

 

[KathleenGee]

Lan…St. James the Lesser became the bishop of Jerusalem.

The Holy Spirit led Peter to Rome. He became the head of the first church there. Its establishment in Rome, the Eternal City, and this choice by God was a statement to the world and humanity, that the Church would be universal.

This is another example of the Word Made Flesh.

Catholics are ecclesial deists…we believing that Christ can work through His chosen ministers some times in spite of themselves.

The challenge is where we as Catholics keep our focus on the Bark of Peter with its ups and downs and tribulations, whether they originate internally or outwardly.

 

[Police42]

When we are baptized, we are incorporated into the Body of Christ, and entire households were baptized by the Apostles, including infants who did not have the faculties of reason. But they all became Christian.

** There is nothing in scripture concerning the baptism of infants and nevertheless water baptism doesn’t save anyone and a different topic.** ** Faith in God has and will always be the way God saves**. Romans 4 verses four and five states: “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Here is an exert from Philippians chapter 1 verses twenty-seven through twenty-nine-" Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel ;in no way alarmed by your opponents -which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. *** F***or to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

I exhort you to read carefully Paul’s arguments concerning grace alone through faith in Jesus in chapters 4,5 and 6 as opposed to works of commandments. I would also encourage a careful look at Philippians chapters 1 and 2, but that is obviously your decision.

If water baptism is a prerequisite to salvation, then a work/command would be required to be saved and in addition there would be no saints in the OT prior to the water baptism of John the baptist. God is immutable; He does not change especially concerning how He grants His , repeat “His GIFT” of salvation. Also, You will not find a record of any apostles being water baptized except for Paul after he was already saved. Must be a reason why that is omitted and a reason why Paul stated that he was glad Jesus did not send him to water baptize.

No one has or can or will believe in God unless God grants it to them Romans 3. Verse eleven proves this: “THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD ;” ** So how many people SEEK/SOUGHT after God? ** What does the Holy Spirit say? ZERO, NONE or Nada.

This is why in both the OT and the NT this passage from God is cited to make sure the people of God understand that God does the picking and the choosing and He did it before time began. Here is what God said to Moses in Exodus chapter 33 and verse 19:And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; **and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” **

Here is what God said in the NT in Romans chapter nine and verse fifteen and sixteen: "For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then** it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.** " * same thing because He does not change.

Here is the full context: Romans 9:10-20

Here God says He hardens hearts, but be careful He doesn’t do that in a proactive way, but rather by withholding His grace and mercy and allows the sinful creature to show their unregenerate and true nature.

Romans chapter fifteen and verse five shows that even endurance is “given” by God, the word means granted or “a gift bestowed upon”.** "****Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, **

Conversion happens at the moment one believes from the heart the gospel and the process of becoming like Christ, a work of the Holy Spirit, is a lifetime of sanctification waiting for the final redemption of the flesh.

You are correct that there is one church that Christ has and continues to build using a variety of methods to get the gospel to the elect. But the Holy Spirit does not save apart from the knowledge of the gospel.

If you read these things you must admit that God and God alone is totally sovereign concerning all of His creatures and His creation and why wouldn’t He be? All of us deserve hell, but in Hid love for man He saves some by His grace and tender mercies through the blessed Savior, Jesus.

God bless you and I hope all of us are in Heaven and pray the Lord comes very soon given the state of the world - don’t you as well, again god bless you and all who are here.

 

[JonNC]

=Police42;9802889]** There is nothing in scripture concerning the baptism of infants and nevertheless water baptism doesn’t save anyone and a different topic.** ** Faith in God has and will always be the way God saves**.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in whichc he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Jon

 

[Police42]

Police 42 -

What church do you attend or do you attend a church? Your comments are neither biblical nor historical. Ignoring among other scripture (let alone tradition):

Matthew 16:18? “Peter your are rock and upon this rock I will build my church.” (Jesus established one church. It has been revealed)

Matthew 5:14? 14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. 16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. (the city on the mountain is his Catholic church).

1 Corinthians 1:10? "I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. (St. Paul says do not be divided)

From where in scripture do you get your thoughts?

I get my thoughts from studying the word of God, reading reliable sources, careful prayer and listening to hours of sermons from solid preachers of the past and the present to which the Holy Spirit of truth reveals to those who diligently study and from where do you get yours?

Matthew 16:18 Jesus states “I will build my church” He did not say Peter will build my church did He? That is not what Jesus said. The foundation (rock) is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Peter stated and to which Jesus stated that flesh nor blood revealed that to you, but my Father - revealed what - the foundation of the church built on the knowledge of Christ as the Savior. Why do you think Jesus told all of them not to anyone about this at that time?

You can go to Matthew 18 and see where Jesus is giving a sermon to some followers/learners (disciples) and states the same thing that whoever receives the message of the gospel of Christ, then their sins are forgiven and whoever rejects the message is bound to their sin.

What does Romans chapter 8 and verse 19 say about the church that Jesus is building? The true church is like minded, cleansed and united in all ways in Christ as one day all will know as God reveals to all.

God bless you and all who are here! Hope we meet in heaven.

 

[Police42]

Well I don’t agree with that, I was merely referring to the strong rhetoric used. Christians should strive to unite into One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Christians are all united in Christ; it is what a Christian is by definition. The question is who is a Christian and more importantly are “you” a Christian? The “you” not meaning you particularly, but “you” as used in the previous post. Do not want to offend you (not appropriate), but only exhort all to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith once for all delivered to the saints, which includes myself, especially myself.

Hope to see you in heaven.:hug1:

 

[Police42]

The problem is that position is wide open and accountable to no one…being saved, being Christian.

That is why the Lord established a Church with chosen and called consecrated ministers, i spirit and truth, and a collective body that together affirms and discerns that movement whether it be of the Holy Spirit affirming the truth of Jesus Christ through His Oral tradition…or not.

We are all inclined to being deceived mostly by our own perceptions, psychology, hang up’s, and wounded spirits. We are in continual need of some form of inner healing. We do not put trust in man or in our own way of looking at things.

Being Church is being with other people and having proper authority.

Christ is not a religion and therefore being a Christian is not based on a religion. Being in Christ , a Christian, is having an intimate one-on-one relationship with the living God. Christ is the governing authority over all things, even His bride and each member of the bride. As a collective all Christians are united in and through Him.

Hope to see you in heaven!

 

[Police42]

Hi, Police42,

If you are really wanting an answer to that question you gave:
Of course the real question for everyone is not are all Catholics Muslims or Mormons et al are “SAVED”, but rather are you a Christian?

Try this link: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm It has everything you need, and it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church and not someone’s opinion.

God bless

I will look at the link ( I promise), but the position of any church, Catholic or non-Catholic is an opinion. Human opinion is not preferred over God’s word since His wisdom has no ends.

Hope to see you in heaven for fellowship.

PS Have a real problem with 837 838, 839 and more, but you believe as you are taught as I believe as I am taught. Thanks for sharing something concrete from Catholic literature - that was kind of you to provide such a link.

 

[Porknpie]

I get my thoughts from studying the word of God, reading reliable sources, careful prayer and listening to hours of sermons from solid preachers of the past and the present to which the Holy Spirit of truth reveals to those who diligently study and from where do you get yours?.

Police42 - I assume that in studying the Word of God you are reading a bible. Which church canonized the books in this bible? I’ll answer this for you: the Catholic church! However, I bet your bible only has 66 books because a printing company removed 7 of them. Wouldn’t you rather read the complete written word of God?

In answer to your question above, we have much in common. I too study the word of God, read reliable sources (the Church Fathers, the Catetchism of the Catholic church & Catholic.com as examples) and listen to hours of sermons from solid preachers.

Here’s my favorite preacher. He is a Jesuit and speaks over ten languages: youtube.com/watch?v=itiO7YPgNkw

I went to a Jesuit college and can tell you that few if any, know God and Scripture better than a Jesuit…IMHO. They started their order in 1534…is this before or after your church was started?

Peace

Pork (me) n pie (my sweet wife)

 

[Porknpie]

** There is nothing in scripture concerning the baptism of infants and nevertheless water baptism doesn’t save anyone and a different topic.** ** Faith in God has and will always be the way God saves**. Romans 4 verses four and five states: “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Police42 -

There is not a word in scripture that says baptism is limited to adults.

Here’s just a few verses from scripturecatholic.com

The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household

You love good preachers. Here are some of the best but they are a bit old, very close in time to Jesus Christ and his disciples :

“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.” Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

“Polycarp declared, 'Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and Saviour?” Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, 9 (A.D. 156).

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

“I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord.” Polycrates, Fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, V:24:7 (A.D. 190).

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.” Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244).

So which preachers do you trust on infant baptism? The early church fathers OR the one that you have been listening to?

Peace…Brother Police42…

 

[Porknpie]

** There is nothing in scripture concerning the baptism of infants and nevertheless water baptism doesn’t save anyone and a different topic.** ** Faith in God has and will always be the way God saves**. Romans 4 verses four and five states: “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Police42 -

There is not a word in scripture that says baptism is limited to adults.

Here’s just a few verses from scripturecatholic.com

The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household

You love good preachers. Here are some of the best but they are a bit old, very close in time to Jesus Christ and his disciples :

“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.” Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.” Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244).

So which preachers do you trust on infant baptism? The early church fathers OR the ones that you have been listening to?

Peace…Brother Police42…

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, PorknPie for answer infant baptisms.

Baptism unites us to the Body of Christ. Why in the world would I deny that to my new born child??? I want my child to live in Christ’s life of grace from the moment they are born.

And regarding religion…that destroys our faith in God…that is the mantra that is going around, especially in the Pacific NW…and now You Tube…someone in our extended family was trying to get my daughter to leave the Catholic church…‘hate religion but love Christ.’

There were many beliefs in ancient times. But formal religion defines its gathering’s faith, and shows truth from falsehood as we witness in the Catholic Church.

Religion essentially is belief in God. Religion also means to bind. Christ told Peter and the apostles that they would be given the power, His power, to forgive sins, of course in His name, and to bind and loosen.

I think when people start attacking the word ‘religion’ in and of itself, they need to see that people of different persuasions approach the word from all varieties of perspectives. Otherwise, to say ‘I hate religion but love Christ’ sounds very very much like a young person who has not been exposed to other forms and practices of authentic faith in Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

You have to realize that the Bible was written by men. Therefore it is open to interpretation. Christ chose His Church through the apostles to be the interpreter of the Bible.

We as Catholics do not divorce one phrase or another. We do not reduce the Sacred Scriptures down to text. What we see rather is that even though human beings wrote out the words of Scripture, God is the Author, and that every phrase and every moment the Word of God is connected not to book/text form…but to a history of people, to the history of salvation that includes us.

We approach Scripture from the context of its whole, all serving the purpose to bear Logos…Jesus Christ, Himself the Living Word of God through which the universe was created.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, IanGE,

Well, we have some things straight - let’s work on a few more (at least the ones that we can work on)

Now, I am just guessing - but, it would seem that Peter was never the head of the Church in Jerusalem is because God had other plans for him.

The idea is that we have Peter as ‘boss apostle’ - so he would be the first to head the list… and then we have all the other guys - all the way to Benedict XVI Here is an authorative list: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm. Besides being long and going over about 2,000 years - what it shows is that Christ founded His Church on Peter, empowered all of the apostles to spread the Gospel - and they passed down Christ’s teaching to the next generation of (yes, I must use the word…) Bishops. What this means is that someone did not decide 16 centuries later to create their own organization, claim they were following Christ and then formulated their own doctrine.

Christ commissioned the apostles as Bishops (He just did not use that word) at the Last Supper when He told them to “Do this (consecrating common bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity) in memory of Me.” Paul went to see Peter (spent two weeks with the First Pope) and apparently was, what we would call, consecrated a Bishop. The issue is that we honestly can not take the words and actions that happend 2,000 years ago - and try to make them fit our contemporary understanding. And, do not think of cathedrals as large and impressive buildings - it is where the bishop has his authority - and the term used is ‘chair’. So, wherever Peter went (and he went to Rome) there was his chair.

I took the time to provide you with several references giving the scriptural basis - maybe you would be good enough to actually substantiate where these items are not in Scripture. Chruch history is another area I provided you with documentation - yet, you just dismiss this out-of-hand. You really need to do better then that. But, then you certainly did get creative with “Are the leaders of the Church afraid that The Holy Spirit will diminish their powers? NO NO NO”

Christ did not found His Church on fear. Christ promised His Church would always have the Truth. For whatever God has chosen to act through humans - beginning with Adam and Eve - and, going on to each of us today. Now, it appears that it is our Savior Who was scurged. So, do not appear to be so possesive.

But, at the risk of putting some focus here - you really did not respond to any of the issues I presented about Protestants rejecting Christ founded His Church on Peter.

God bless

**Yes, the Gospels clearly state that Peter was boss apostle, but for the life of me I cannot understand why then they never chose him as head of the Church in Jerusalem? I fully accept the Pope as ELECTED head of the Roman church, but why do they have to claim they are successors of the Seat of St. Peter when he was never a Bishop and never had a cathedra. Not in scripture, not in Church history. Is this claim a spiritual link with Peter and through him to Jesus 2000 years ago? in this day, anybody can be infilled with the Holy Spirit, have the Father and Jesus make their home with and in them, and have the AUTHORITY to use the Name of Jesus in infallible prophecy and in power and in prayer. ASK and you shall receive. Are the leaders of the Church afraid that The Holy Spirit will diminish their powers? NO NO NO: Jesus (Whose Church it is) and the Holy Spirit are there to assist all, especially leaders and Popes. The Lord, for some reason, seems to want humans through whom to act: He NEEDS a Pope, He NEEDS leaders, so long as they acknowledge HIM as boss and keep an ear cocked for His guidance.
I expect I’ll get another 10 or 50 naughty-boy points, but my boss and friend, Jesus, was scourged for all of us and continues to be scourged by open scorn of Him, His Holy Spirit and the gifts they hold out to all people. **

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

Nicely said!

Ah… was it just my impression, or did you think Police 42 was doing a lot of shouting?

God bless

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Police42,

It seemed to me that your previous posts involved a lot of e-mail type screaming (all caps, large font, different colors…) there really isn’t any need for that. Besides, no one else is responding in that manner. Please, relax and just take a deep breath. Besides, I hope to see you in heaven some day, too. Ah, but now it is time for some serious work.

There are several Catholic sources I would like to share with you - but, I think it is important for you to read this and then send a post out with some solid comments - and, that means you need to do so honest research based on a logical foundation. Let me explain.

In a previous post, you made the following statement: “I get my thoughts from studying the word of God, reading reliable sources, careful prayer and listening to hours of sermons from solid preachers of the past and the present to which the Holy Spirit of truth reveals to those who diligently study and from where do you get yours?” And, then in this post you made this statement: “…but the position of any church, Catholic or non-Catholic is an opinion. Human opinion is not preferred over God’s word since His wisdom has no ends.” As I see it, these statements are not only contradictory, but imply the your use of a double standard. I admit I know nothing about you - and have no idea about your religious, historic, ancient linguist and biblical knowledge. But, while any literate person can open up the Bible and read the words - getting the intended understanding is another matter. The proof of that pudding is that there are thousands of Protestant groups that all claim that their interpretation is correct - and every one else’s is incorrect. Actually, there are several Protestant groups that say that Baptism is essential - and you previously dismissed this idea.

You claim that it is you - AND YOU ALONE - who make the following decisions:
1.) deciding what it is you will study when you study Scripture - and you will arrive at your own understanding.

2.) deciding who you will determine to be a reliable author - and that would be based on what? Seriously, some people choose books that make the NY Times book review while others go by what their neighbor says is a good read. But, we are talking about something to add value to the knowledge you want to have of God’s Word.

3.) ‘careful’ prayer - not I honestly found that a most unusual modifer for prayer. As I appreciate the matter, prayer is simply talking to God. Christ told us to be like little children - and being ‘careful’ does not appear to be child-like to me.

4.) deciding who is a ‘solid’ preacher - again, based on what? There are many truly gifted speakers out there - ‘could charm a bird out of a tree’, if they were so inclined… But, honestly, people can be swayed by many things - and by many spirits - and not all of them are either decent or believable once we look beyond the ‘varnished verbs’.

5.) deciding that the Holy Spirit has moved in a particular direction - really, how do you know? Many have been deceived - and Jesus warned that false preachers would come and deceive ‘even the elect’. Determing exactly which spirit is leading is obviously not for the faint of heart. It is easy to make a mistake (again, my references are all of those various Protestant groups that have conflicting doctrines - yet all claim to be biblical.

6.) finally, you have decided that the position of any church is just an opinion. I guess you are saying that one is as good as another - and, all are essesntially worthless because you have determined that none are guided by the Holy Spirit…but, you are!

I am 66-years old, and I have been around the block a few times. I have looked very carefully at the the teachings of the Catholic Church and have made the following decision for myself: either I believe Christ or, I don’t. It really is that simple. Either He built His Church on sinful and cowardly and vain Peter as the foundation - or, He didn’t. Either Christ promised His Church would have all truth - or, He didn’t. Either there is a gradual unfolding of God’s Plan for each of us (like looking at Abraham - and him following God’s Word even though he didn’t have the whole story. But, then again, Jacob or Moses or anyone else in the OT had the whole Plan) or, there isn’t. Based on my experience, I know I am not smart enough to figure that out on my own - and, the foundation of my faith in Christ is from the Church He founded and promised would never teach error. This comes from Christ - and, since He is God, this is not just another opinion.

God bless

I get my thoughts from studying the word of God, reading reliable sources, careful prayer and listening to hours of sermons from solid preachers of the past and the present to which the Holy Spirit of truth reveals to those who diligently study and from where do you get yours?

Matthew 16:18 Jesus states “I will build my church” He did not say Peter will build my church did He? That is not what Jesus said. The foundation (rock) is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Peter stated and to which Jesus stated that flesh nor blood revealed that to you, but my Father - revealed what - the foundation of the church built on the knowledge of Christ as the Savior. Why do you think Jesus told all of them not to anyone about this at that time?

What does Romans chapter 8 and verse 19 say about the church that Jesus is building? The true church is like minded, cleansed and united in all ways in Christ as one day all will know as God reveals to all.

God bless you and all who are here! Hope we meet in heaven.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also intended to say thank you, Tom! for all your work here at CAF.

I think the biggest problem is that Protestant preachers do not understand the nature and mission of the Catholic Church, fail to study how we worship, how we approach Sacred Scripture — Who is Jesus Christ Himself, Logos – and then take much time indoctrinating their flock with such misrepresentations, rather than focusing on the will of God, the life of grace in Christ. If you truly focus on Christ, and you have the fullness of faith in Christ, why do you need to pass time with those who think it necessary to pass on such misrepresentations?

We have to first understand that the Church Christ established is mystiological…The life of the Catholic Church comes from Christ Himself. The essence of the Church is mystery. That is because the Church exists on faith, and our faith is rooted in Jesus Christ. Our faith is rooted in the belief that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross for sin, and rose from the dead to give us victory over death and sin, and that He would always remain with us.

We are baptized in Christ. We are just as much Christian as non-Catholic Christians. Our life we draw on comes from Christ Himself and not from men.

We do not view the Church through the eyes of men and for men, but we see through men as men chosen by Christ and consecrated in spirit and truth to bring us life in Christ through the Word and through the Sacraments, and to participate in Divine Worship where Christ is offered as the atonement of sin to the Heavenly Father, united with us, and making us acceptable to Him in heaven.

To understand better, one has to take the time to study what we believe, and not automatically assume things because someone else worked pretty hard to make you think the way you do about our faith.

If you recognize the mechanisms bringing you to such sentiments about the Catholic faith by Protestant teachers, you should likewise think again and consider if such representation of our faith is compromised.

Well, I am needing to end my night in prayer now…God bless you all…

 

[tqualey]

Thank you, Kathleen.

I would like to piggy-back on a comment you made - “…recognize the mechanism …” and to make a brief comment.

Most people are brought up in a particular religious tradition. In some ways, it is hardly different from the lessons learned in the family on how to get along with one another, with one’s neighbors, how to handle money, and all those many other things that are all part of growing up. But, at some point, we have to examine these things and take what is of value because we now believe them as true. The idea of remaining with any belief model simply because we grew up in it - and not examined and claimed it for ourselves - has serious flaws in my opinion.

Personally, besides being baptized as an infant, I had 16-years of Catholic education (4-year Catholic College) and I was given a lot of information. But, the real issue for me was when I personally put all of this together - and contrasted it with all of the various competing denominations. The realization that came to me is that - at its very core - those who led the 16th Century revolt simply lacked Faith! They did not believe that God could actually be guiding His Church through the leaders that were giving public scandal. The heart of the matter for each of those in revolt was not the public scandal they correctly observed - but, how are they going to respond to it. In my opinion, such a position would be similar to saying that God could not act throug Balaam - or his donkey - to get God’s message over Here is a nice Protestant site…(biblenews1.com/balaam/balaam.htm )

God bless

I also intended to say thank you, Tom! for all your work here at CAF.

I think the biggest problem is that Protestant preachers do not understand the nature and mission of the Catholic Church, fail to study how we worship, how we approach Sacred Scripture — Who is Jesus Christ Himself, Logos – and then take much time indoctrinating their flock with such misrepresentations, rather than focusing on the will of God, the life of grace in Christ. If you truly focus on Christ, and you have the fullness of faith in Christ, why do you need to pass time with those who think it necessary to pass on such misrepresentations?

We have to first understand that the Church Christ established is mystiological…The life of the Catholic Church comes from Christ Himself. The essence of the Church is mystery. That is because the Church exists on faith, and our faith is rooted in Jesus Christ. Our faith is rooted in the belief that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross for sin, and rose from the dead to give us victory over death and sin, and that He would always remain with us.

We are baptized in Christ. We are just as much Christian as non-Catholic Christians. Our life we draw on comes from Christ Himself and not from men.

We do not view the Church through the eyes of men and for men, but we see through men as men chosen by Christ and consecrated in spirit and truth to bring us life in Christ through the Word and through the Sacraments, and to participate in Divine Worship where Christ is offered as the atonement of sin to the Heavenly Father, united with us, and making us acceptable to Him in heaven.

To understand better, one has to take the time to study what we believe, and not automatically assume things because someone else worked pretty hard to make you think the way you do about our faith.

If you recognize the mechanisms bringing you to such sentiments about the Catholic faith by Protestant teachers, you should likewise think again and consider if such representation of our faith is compromised.

Well, I am needing to end my night in prayer now…God bless you all…

 

[Porknpie]

Here is a nice Protestant site…(biblenews1.com/balaam/balaam.htm )

God bless

Tom -

Did a little research on this nice protestant site. The author apparently is all-knowing on who is saved and who is not. Nice to know that he thinks we Catholics are saved. This is despite his attending Baptist colleges in Florida and Texas. He doesn’t address other Protestants so I can assume yes as well.

See
“What is the Gospel”… evidently all who never heard the gospel are not saved.
“Are Catholics Saved”…evidently we can be but we have to be careful

biblenews1.com/save/save.htm

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC,

Nicely said!

Ah… was it just my impression, or did you think Police 42 was doing a lot of shouting?

God bless

Uh, yeah!

No need to shout, IMHO. You and I often get into strong debates and we never shout at each other. Too much respect, I’d say, between us for that.

Jon