Did Mary die?

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1962Missal:
Hey Homer,

Several posters are giving you the benefit of the doubt. Don’t blow it again with hit and run posting.

Justin
I don’t know anything about this, since I don’t know Homer or the rest of you very well, but he merely asked a question and he received answers. Is it absolutely necessary that he post again, for any other reason than to say thanks?
 
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Hesychios:
I don’t know anything about this, since I don’t know Homer or the rest of you very well, but he merely asked a question and he received answers. Is it absolutely necessary that he post again, for any other reason than to say thanks?
homer is a rather unique individual in this forum, sort of our resident hit-and-run anti-Catholic. He has a long history of posing stock anti-Catholic questions which, we presume, he thinks there is no answer to and will thus crush our Faith in the Catholic Church. He then never bothers to respond to any of the answers people go through a lot of trouble to give him, or answer any of the counter-questions people pose to him, instead showing up later with yet another hit-and-run-attack, then slinking away to strike another day.
 
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MariaG:
Christ died yet was without sin.
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Vincent:
Christ died. You and I insist that He wasn’t a sinner. So this at least shows that death is possible for those who are not sinners. So if Christ died yet was not a sinner, then if Mary dies, then it’s not necessarily conclusive that she was a sinner.
Jesus had to die to free us from our sins and because the penalty of sin is death he had to become a man and die. But what happened on the third day??? The death of Christ is not the subject here and irrelevant to this topic because you cannot in anyway compare the death of our Lord to the death of a human being.
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Vincent:
And what kind of proof do you seek? In the case of Christ’s ascension, one proof might be an empty tomb. We have the same case for Mary.
The proof for Christ is Scripture that is the Word of God. When it comes to Mary at least admit that there is no proof at all and it all came from “tradition”.
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1962Missal:
To these gifts, man has no claim by right of nature. Mary, although sinless, had no claim to a gift over and above the nature given to…
Where in the name of Jesus do you get this from ???
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akemner:
Tradition tells us that when it came time for her repose, she called the Apostles to herself. All came (save for Thomas, by Divine dispensation), most on a cloud, since they surviving Apostles were elswhere and far flung. After she fell asleep, they carried her into her tomb (either in Ephesus or Jerusalem, and in this point alone there is discrepensy in written testaments, owing probably to scribal error at some point). On the third day, the Apostles had a vision of her assumption, Thomas was borne to the place where the Apostles were, and asked to have the tomb opened, so he could venerate her. They found the tomb empty, save for her cinture (which Thomas kept for a while, and ended up in Constantinople by the Fifth Century) and the fragrance of roses. That is the gist of the story, though i may be a little hazy on a couple details.
Talk about fairy tales !!! This is not the Biblical Mary at all !!! Where do you get this from ???

Jesus did not ask us at anytime to pray to Mary or through Mary because he is the only mediator between God and man. If Jesus indeed wanted us to honor Mary in a special way and pray through her than why was this his response: And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11: 27, 28).

About the hit and run thing… you know my life is not all about this web site, i have to eat, study, pray, go out… Some of you are 24/7 online on this site!
 
originally posted by Homer
The death of Christ is not the subject here and irrelevant to this topic because you cannot in anyway compare the death of our Lord to the death of a human being.
Since Christ was fully God as well as fully human, how is that irrelevant?
The proof for Christ is Scripture that is the Word of God. When it comes to Mary at least admit that there is no proof at all and it all came from “tradition”.
You asked if she died. We have told you the Church is silent on this issue. There are opinions, but they are just that opinions. Church theologians themselves have said, there is no Biblical evidence or Tradition on whether or not Mary died before being assumed into heaven.

You did not ask about her assumption. There are Biblical references to that, but you did not ask for those.
 
Jesus did not ask us at anytime to pray to Mary or through Mary because he is the only mediator between God and man. If Jesus indeed wanted us to honor Mary in a special way and pray through her than why was this his response: And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11: 27, 28).

Ok, i didn’t write this, so if you have a problem with it, don’t ask me, I got it off of a website called CatholicOutlook.com

Common Objections:

“In Luke 11:27-28, a woman tried to honor Mary, and Jesus rebuked her.”


by Gary Hoge

The passage in question reads,

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it” (Luke 11:27-8).

Some see this woman in the crowd as some sort of “proto-Catholic” who was trying to exalt Mary at the expense of Jesus, and who was swiftly rebuked for it. But only Protestant bias would see this woman’s statement as a compliment to Mary. Clearly, it was a compliment to Jesus, not Mary. The woman was saying in effect, “Your mother (whoever she is) is so blessed and lucky to have a son like you!” Obviously, this woman had no idea who Jesus’ mother was, and so she was not praising her; she was praising Jesus. “You are so wonderful! Blessed is the mother who bore you, blessed is town where you were raised, blessed is the ground you walk on,” etc.

The woman’s comment, then, had little to do with Mary directly, it was mainly a gushing kind of superficial celebrity-worship aimed at Jesus. And although it’s not clear from the translation quoted above, I don’t believe that Jesus rebuked the woman for this. According to the Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, the word translated “rather,” menoun, is “a combination of particles serving to take up what has just preceded, [to] either emphasize or to correct: indeed, really, truly, rather.” 1 The translators of the New International Version, quoted above, believed that Jesus meant to correct, but I believe He meant to emphasize, and so I believe this passage should be translated:

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Indeed, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Jesus appears to have picked up on what the woman said, and turned it around, saying, in effect, “Yes, my mother is blessed, and so is everyone else who, like her, hears the word of God and obeys it.” In using his mother as an example of the blessing that comes from faithful obedience to the word of God, Jesus echoed Luke 1:45: “Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”

This episode, then, does not demonstrate that it is wrong to honor Mary. On the contrary, the Bible says that all generations will call her blessed (Luke 1:48). Besides, no one can honor her more than God has already honored her by making her the mother of His Son. Jesus was not refuting the idea that His mother was blessed, he was simply pointing out that all are blessed who, like her, faithfully obey the word of God.
 
I didn’t write thisone either, but it answers your question.

by Gary Hoge

The phrase “praying to the saints” is probably an unfortunate one, because in contemporary usage the word “pray” has come to refer only to that form of worship by which we praise God and humbly petition Him. Catholics certainly do not pray to the saints in that sense. However, the word “pray” has an older, now archaic meaning. It used to mean simply “ask,” whether the object of the request was God or a person. For example, in the King James translation of [Acts 27:34](javascript:void(0);), Paul says to some sailors, “Wherefore I pray you to take some meat.” In other words, “I ask you to eat some meat.” There are literally hundreds of examples of the word “pray” used in this manner in the King James Bible:

And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. (Gen. 24:17).

Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer’s house is. (1 Sam. 9:18).

and the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of who speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (Acts 8:34).

The phrase “praying to the saints” reflects this older usage, and it simply means “asking them for their prayers on our behalf.” Asking the saints to pray for us does not violate the unique mediatorship of Jesus any more than asking our friends to pray for us does. There is a sense in which all of us are called to be mediators. Think about it: When you pray for your friends, are you not going before God on their behalf? Do they not do the same for you? Is that not the very definition of “mediator”? In fact, the Bible verse where Paul tells us that there is “one mediator between God and man,” [1 Tim. 2:5](javascript:void(0);), is in the context of intercessory prayer. Look at the four verses immediately preceding this one:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone – for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:1-5).
 
I am fairly new to the forums and still researching the rules. Where does it dictate when it is time to change the subject or introduce an off the point comment or question, and where is the rule about just answer the first question with a reply that refers to an entirely different question. By the 5th post I have to change the subject or I can’t play any more?
 
Jesus did not ask us at anytime to pray to Mary or through Mary because he is the only mediator between God and man.

I didn’t write this one either, so don’t come to me.

Common Objections:

“It is wrong to pray to Mary and the other dead saints, because the Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.”


by Gary Hoge

The phrase “praying to the saints” is probably an unfortunate one, because in contemporary usage the word “pray” has come to refer only to that form of worship by which we praise God and humbly petition Him. Catholics certainly do not pray to the saints in that sense. However, the word “pray” has an older, now archaic meaning. It used to mean simply “ask,” whether the object of the request was God or a person. For example, in the King James translation of [Acts 27:34](javascript:void(0);), Paul says to some sailors, “Wherefore I pray you to take some meat.” In other words, “I ask you to eat some meat.” There are literally hundreds of examples of the word “pray” used in this manner in the King James Bible:

And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. (Gen. 24:17).

Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer’s house is. (1 Sam. 9:18).

and the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of who speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (Acts 8:34).

The phrase “praying to the saints” reflects this older usage, and it simply means “asking them for their prayers on our behalf.” Asking the saints to pray for us does not violate the unique mediatorship of Jesus any more than asking our friends to pray for us does. There is a sense in which all of us are called to be mediators. Think about it: When you pray for your friends, are you not going before God on their behalf? Do they not do the same for you? Is that not the very definition of “mediator”? In fact, the Bible verse where Paul tells us that there is “one mediator between God and man,” [1 Tim. 2:5](javascript:void(0);), is in the context of intercessory prayer. Look at the four verses immediately preceding this one:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone – for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:1-5).

What does this mean? Simply that the only way we have access to God is through Christ. He alone bridges the gap between God and man. However, He invites us (indeed, commands us) to participate in His own mediation through our intercessory prayers. Thus, if we can act as mediators, in a secondary sense, it is only because we pray in the name of Christ, the one mediator between God and man.
 
the original question, was “did Mary die?” which has been answered very well. There are some other very good posts on why we pray with Mary and why we honor Mary, which would be a better fit for discussion of your point.
 
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Hesychios:
I don’t know anything about this, since I don’t know Homer or the rest of you very well, but he merely asked a question and he received answers. Is it absolutely necessary that he post again, for any other reason than to say thanks?
It is okay. Water under the bridge.

Justin
 
I just quoted this person, i don’t know how to only quote a portion of their post, did you think i was saying this? Oh, well if you did, sorry for the confusion.
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homer:
Jesus had to die to free us from our sins and because the penalty of sin is death he had to become a man and die. But what happened on the third day??? The death of Christ is not the subject here and irrelevant to this topic because you cannot in anyway compare the death of our Lord to the death of a human being.

The proof for Christ is Scripture that is the Word of God. When it comes to Mary at least admit that there is no proof at all and it all came from “tradition”.

Where in the name of Jesus do you get this from ???

Talk about fairy tales !!! This is not the Biblical Mary at all !!! Where do you get this from ???

Jesus did not ask us at anytime to pray to Mary or through Mary because he is the only mediator between God and man. If Jesus indeed wanted us to honor Mary in a special way and pray through her than why was this his response: And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11: 27, 28).

About the hit and run thing… you know my life is not all about this web site, i have to eat, study, pray, go out… Some of you are 24/7 online on this site!
 
Homer,

I have a thought for you. I know you believe the Catholic Church has made up doctrines. Why would the CC not make up a story of how Mary died or didn’t die? I mean, if a group is going to make things up, why not go all the way. It sure would help when explaining the Assumption to say, “When Mary died…” or even better yet “Because she was born without the stain of original sin, Mary didn’t die but was Assumed into heaven.”

I know it doesn’t prove we haven’t made things up, but if you are going to make up doctrine, why would you have unexplained loose ends?

The CC does not speak on whether or not Mary died. Why? Because there is nothing in Scripture or Sacred Tradition telling us what happened.

We do know she was assumed into heaven through both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
 
In the early church, when an important person died, the people would demand the body and fight for relics…bone Etc. Often different groups would fight over these relics. There has never been anything found, in eary church writtings about Mary, which suggests that there were any remains to decide about. This is why many believe that Mary did not die.

Deacon Tony SFO
 
First of all if Homer wants biblical proof that Mary is in Heaven right now, body and soul, he need look no further than Rev 12:1-7. Here we see Mary in Heaven with a crown of twelve stars(she has a head) and the moon under her feet. And don’t tell me that the Woman is Israel. While in a typological sense, it can refer to Israel in some sense, It more fits with being Mary, seeing how Herod tried to devour Christ, but they fled into Egypt. And we all agree that the child is Jesus so the woman who gave birth to him is obviously Mary. But she is also the Ark of the New Covenant, since she carried within in her the word made flesh, the heavenly manna. Seeing how what was in the Ark is what made it Holy, Mary is called blessed precisley because of her carrying Christ in her womb. Notice how when Mary went to visit Elizabeth, how Elizabeth says “what is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” When David came to be reunited with Ark he said “what is it that the Ark of My Lord should come to me.” Then he did a dance for Joy around the Ark. John the Baptist is said to have lept for Joy at the sound of Mary’s voice. And they both Mary and the Ark stayed in the hill country of Judea for 3 months. Mary is also the Queen of the new Kingdom, the Heavenly Jerusalm. In the Kingdom of David, there was always a Queen and she was never the kings wife. She was his mother. She had a throne of honor at the kings right hand and he showed her deference. He never felt threatened by her, nor did he feel threatned when she was shown honor or Glory. And notice how when someone wanted the king to grant them something they went to Bathsheeba, Solomons mother, and said surley he will not deny you this request and when she went into the Kings quarters, the King bowed to her. The Kingdom David is the earthly model of the Heavenly Kingdom. though imperfect. Christ is called the Son of David. They also had a Prime Minister in the House of David, whenver there was KIng there was a Prime minister who also had a throne of honor(see Isiah 22:22). This is the text that Christ repeated almost verbatum when giving the “keys to kingdom” to Peter.

The fourth commandment says to Honor thy father and mother. To honor in hebrew, means to bestow glory. Christ being the perfect Son would have fufilled this commandment par excellance. We need to simply imitate Christ. Homer do you Honor your spiritual mother, the Mother of all of the living, for through Eve, death came into the world, but through Mary everlasting life was brought into the world. Do you call her Blessed?
 
Let us read the actual pronouncement of the Assumption.

Addressing a jubilant crowd of more than 500,000 people packed into St. Peter’s Square, Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in Munificentissimus Deus on Nov. 1, 1950, that the:

“Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

Nowhere in this statement does the Pope say that Mary did or did not die. The phrase is, “having completed the course of her earthly life”.

So the question of whether she was assumed before or after her death does not come in.
Her sinlessness saved her body from corruption due to sin.

The Church does not take a stand on her death, just the assumption.

🙂
 
I just wanted to bump this back up to the top to give Homer a better chance to find this. I know he doesn’t come here as often as others.🙂
 
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Vincent:
Christ died. You and I insist that He wasn’t a sinner.
True. Christ died. He was without sin. But what caused Him to die? Sin. But not His own sin. He took upon Him the sins of the world before He was crucified. Our sins killed Him. If He had not taken upon Himself the sins of the world, He wouldn’t have died, because He would have had no sin within Himself to kill Him.
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Vincent:
So this at least shows that death is possible for those who are not sinners.
No it doesn’t. Apparently, you did not realize what killed Jesus. Our sins killed Jesus.
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Vincent:
So if Christ died yet was not a sinner, then if Mary dies, then it’s not necessarily conclusive that she was a sinner.
I disagree. Homer quoted a very important scripture: Romans 5:12"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Sin is what kills humans. If Mary died, she had to be sinful. Also, if Mary died, it would mean that she was not as righteous as Enoch and Elijah, who both were translated into heaven without dying.
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Vincent:
And what kind of proof do you seek? In the case of Christ’s ascension, one proof might be an empty tomb. We have the same case for Mary.
You have an empty tomb for Mary??? Yet, Catholics on this forum have told me that there is no tomb for Mary, because she was assumed to heaven. If there is an empty tomb for Mary, would this not mean that she died and was buried?
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Vincent:
But even more fundamentally, you believe that Christ ascended into Heaven on the testimony of divine revelation, which for you is confined to the Scriptures alone. As you know, for Catholics, divine revelation isn’t limited to Scripture.
If divine revelation isn’t limited only to Scripture, where else is it found? I have already been told on this forum that revelation ended with the death of the apostles. I have also been told that Sacred Tradition is not revelatory. So, where is this divine revelation found if not only in Scripture?
 
posted by rod of iron
I have also been told that Sacred Tradition is not revelatory.
Sacred Tradition is the body of oral teachings. There would be oral teachings before the last apostle died. I think you misunderstood or I typed incorrectly. The oral teachings of the church, Sacred Tradition, are not NEW Revelation. They are part of the same revelation as inspired Scripture, and no NEW revelation is part of Sacred Tradition. The definition of NEW being something added after the death of the last apostle. I hope that is a little clearer.
 
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