Did Mary die?

[metal1633]

rod of iron:

But this original sin is what makes it possibly for our bodies to die. God said in Genesis 2:17 – "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Original sin was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and in their rebellion, partook of the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of that disobedience, the curse has been passed down on all of Adam’s decendents. That curse is death. But it is not an immediate death. God has given us all a probationary period on Earth before we die, so that we can prepare to meet God and choose the salvation that He provided for us through the atonement of Jesus for us. Mary is one of the descendents of Adam and Eve, and would have to have had original sin within her, or she would not have been capable of dying.

Adam and Eve were not born with the curse of original sin. They were the ones who committed this original sin, which has been passed on to all their descendents. To say that Mary was not born with original sin is to say that she is not of the same species that we are. This would mean that Mary was not human. To suggest that God decided to exempt Mary from being born of original sin just because Gabriel called her, “Full of grace”, is quite the stretch of the imagination. If this was really true, why doesn’t the Bible spell it out more clearly for us?

The seed is passed on through the male of the species. Everyone descending from Adam, including Mary, has had a human father, except Jesus. He did not have an Earthly father, so He was not a result of human seed. This means that original sin was not passed on to Him. Mary had a human father, so she was a result of human seed, which means that she had original sin.

The Catholic church may teach differently than this, but such a case where God would exempt a person from original sin would make God a respector of persons.

Pope Pius XII wrote “Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through Baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.
Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body”

Please remember, we too have been freed from Original Sin and are Empowerd by Gods Grace and can live perfectly Holy lives and yet we still die.

 

[rod_of_iron]

metal1633:

That is theological speculation at best. Pope Pius XII says that by her Immaculate Conception she was exempt from the Corruption of remaining in the Grave. The Liturgy of the Church makes many references to her death…

Why are you quoting Pope Pius XII to me? Was he a prophet? Did he receive revelation from God for the whole church? If not, then he was only giving his interpretation and his opinion about Mary.

Wasn’t Jesus also “****exempt from the Corruption of remaining in the Grave”? The grave could not hold Jesus. Now, you are claiming that the grave could not hold Mary either. How do they differ in that respect?

metal1633:

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” From the *Sacramentarium Gregorianum by *Pope Adrian I

"Could not be kept down by the bonds of death"? Yet, she was born of Earthly parents? Why would God exempt her, unless she is some kind of deity?

metal1633:

The Church teaches that “The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. **But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam – from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.”
**

The church really claims that Mary could not sin? She could not steal if she had wanted to? She could not have murdered is she had wanted to? She could not have lied if she had wanted to? She could not hate if she had wanted to? If so, Mary was not really born of human parents. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, which gave them their free agency. But you seem to be saying that Mary did not have this agency that every other human has had. If she did not have the ability to choose between right and wrong, she could not have been able to choose happiness or righteousness. Without this choice, she could receive no reward from God.

I do not see how you figure that Mary could die, if she did not inherit “original sin”. God told Adam and Eve that if they were to rebel by eating from the forbidden tree, they would surely die. Eating from that tree was the original sin, because it was the first rebellious act of the human race. It was disobedience to God. Therefore, if Mary was indeed a descendent of Adam and Eve, she would have to inherit original sin and would eventually die from that inheritance. Otherwise, God would be a liar.

 

[RomanRyan1088]

rod of iron:

I do not see how you figure that Mary could die, if she did not inherit “original sin”. God told Adam and Eve that if they were to rebel by eating from the forbidden tree, they would surely die. Eating from that tree was the original sin, because it was the first rebellious act of the human race. It was disobedience to God. Therefore, if Mary was indeed a descendent of Adam and Eve, she would have to inherit original sin and would eventually die from that inheritance. Otherwise, God would be a liar.

Ummmm… Correct me if im wrong, but Adam and Eve didn’t have human parents either, yet they sinned.

 

[metal1633]

rod of iron:

Why are you quoting Pope Pius XII to me? Was he a prophet? Did he receive revelation from God for the whole church? If not, then he was only giving his interpretation and his opinion about Mary.

I quote Pius XII because he wrote the Apostolic Constitution defining “ex cathedra” the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. I quoted from that document. You can read it here. Why wont you accept the Teachings and Traditions of the Church in this matter?

 

[hlgomez]

ROI,

How can you explain Enoch and Elijah not having experienced bodily death in the Bible with your views?

Pio

 

[metal1633]

hlgomez:

ROI,

How can you explain Enoch and Elijah not having experienced bodily death in the Bible with your views?

Pio

Its not MY view. It is the Tradition of the Church. The “View” that Mary did not suffer temporal death is the one not in keeping with Tradition.

As to Enoch and Elijah. The most common ancient view of the Fathers was that the two witnesses in Revelation will be Enoch and Elijah. As you may remember reading they are killed, then raised and taken to Heaven This may be the closest we will get to an “official” position of the Church on this matter, since their identity has not been made explicit in divine revelation.

 

[hlgomez]

Just a quick question: Is “Rod of Iron” and “Metal1633” the same person here?

Pio

 

[Franz]

metal1633:

Its not MY view. It is the Tradition of the Church. The “View” that Mary did not suffer temporal death is the one not in keeping with Tradition.

As to Enoch and Elijah. The most common ancient view of the Fathers was that the two witnesses in Revelation will be Enoch and Elijah. As you may remember reading they are killed, then raised and taken to Heaven This may be the closest we will get to an “official” position of the Church on this matter, since their identity has not been made explicit in divine revelation.

Question, which fathers who’s interpretation you accept are you referring to? Which Tradition are you referring to?

 

[rod_of_iron]

metal1633:

I quote Pius XII because he wrote the Apostolic Constitution defining “ex cathedra” the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. I quoted from that document. You can read it here. Why wont you accept the Teachings and Traditions of the Church in this matter?

Why won’t I accept them? Because they are not prophetic or revelatory. I have been told that public revelation stopped with the apostles. Therefore, Pius XII could not be writing by the spirit of prophecy or revelation. From all I can ascertain, the teachings and traditions of the church are not from God. They were created by the will of man.

 

[larryo]

One is free to believe that the Blessed Mother died or that she didn’t die. But all Catholics *must *believe that she was assumed body and soul into heaven. The Assumption is an infallibly defined dogma. The majority tradition in the Catholic Church is that Mary died and was assumed.

 

[metal1633]

hlgomez:

Just a quick question: Is “Rod of Iron” and “Metal1633” the same person here?

Pio

Absolutly NOT. Rod of Iron isnt even a Catholic. I thought he was and was discussing the issue with him as such. I dont understand why this issue would even be relevant to a non-catholic. I am, BTW, a Catholic.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Faithful 2 Rome:

Though no dates are given…the Church teaches thru Apostolic Tradition, that the Holy Virgin died and THEN was taken up to Heaven, Body and Soul.

.

Actually, the Church has no definitive teaching on the matter. The only thing she definitively teaches is that her body didn’t decompose.

 

[metal1633]

Franz:

Question, which fathers who’s interpretation you accept are you referring to? Which Tradition are you referring to?

I am refering the the APOSTOLIC TRADITION of the Church which has for centuries proclaimed Mary’s death and assumption in its liturgical celebration of the Feast of the Assumption. I can quote the Fathers and Popes and litugical prayers on the subject if you like. Here are some…

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Sacramentary of Pope Adrian I.

“It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death.” St John Damascene

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” St. Modestus of Jerusalem

The Church does not just Celebrate her Assumption but also her Dormition (falling asleep) on the same Feast day. Because Traditions says she suffered temporal death and then was raised and taken body and soul to heaven.

Have Western Catholics forgotten this?

 

[Veronica_Anne]

rod of iron:

If this is true, then it tells me that Mary was sinful just like everyone else, except Jesus, has been. The Bible says that death is the wages of sin. Sin is what kills humans. Therefore, sin is what killed Mary.

I still find it unfathomable to suggest that Mary was born of parents who had been born with original sin, yet she is not also born with it.

Wow… lots of posts on this thread… I only just got here 5 minutes ago, and am still schleppling through them up to this point.

My :twocents: are these:

The infallable Doctrine of Faith that I as a Catholic **must ** accept (even if I do not understand them… they are a mystery, even so) are these:

1. Mary was conceived without sin.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya2.htm

This is true because, even as a human, God created her without the stain of original sin so that she would be pure if/when she chose to bear His Son, Jesus. Of course, God (who knows everything and is beyond/outside space and time because He created space and time) KNEW that she would say “YES” == and therefore, this is really a no-brainer for me to comprehend.

She never sinned, either.

1. Mary was assumed into Heaven upon the end of her time here on Earth.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya5.htm

In God’s mercy and perfect love, he chose to permit and cause His own mother to immediately come directly to Heaven to be with Him once the course of her life here on Earth had ended.

 

[metal1633]

Catholic4aReasn:

Actually, the Church has no definitive teaching on the matter. The only thing she definitively teaches is that her body didn’t decompose.

I find this mentality amazing. That unless it is definitively defined you can believe what ever you want. We, as Catholics, are required to believe ALL of the Apostolic Tradition, whether it is has been Dogmaticly delared or not. Before the dogmatic definition of the Trinity was it OK to not believe in it? No it was not.

 

[metal1633]

Veronica Anne:

My :twocents: are these:

The infallable Doctrine of Faith that I as a Catholic **must **accept (even if I do not understand them… they are a mystery, even so) are these:

As Catholics we are required to hold to ALL of Apsotolic Tradition, not just the parts that have been defined dogmaticly. Apostolic Tradition is itself Infallible. Dogmatic definitions arise only when needed to preserve the Faith.

 

[MariaG]

But the problem is that not ALL of the writings on our Blessed Mother’s death (or lack of death) agree. Most say she died and then was assumed into heaven. However, not all agree. You keep stating our Blessed Mother’s death as a fact we have to accept. That is simply not true. There is a difference between dogma like the Assumption and writings that refer to our Blessed Mother’s death. The first I must assent to, the second I do not have to.

Also, I have been thinking. I find it interesting that her death was not included in the declaration. Could that be that even though The pope thought she had died, many theologians thought she had died, the Holy Spirit kept the church free from error by having that declared as such because she may not have died? It is entirely possible, but the point is, Our Blessed Mother’s death was not included in the decree and as such I am not bound one way or another.

 

[RomanRyan1088]

Ok, after thinking about it, i got something to say. If you could prevent your mother from suffering through the pain of death, would you? What makes you think Jesus would let his mother suffer the pain of death, after all, it is still his mother, she still gave birth to him. She still loved him and was very protective, so what makes you think he would forget about her and let you suffer, common people, Jesus just wouldn’t do that.

 

[Hesychios]

The older tradition is that she died.

There is no reason to mythologize about this.

Anything else we say is high speculation and totally unnecessary.

Let’s face it, she lived for probably 15 years after the crucifixion, people knew her. They knew she died, that’s the tradition.

They also knew that the tomb was opened and found empty, that’s the tradition. The only way that they could have opened the tomb was because they expected to see her, she wasn’t there. There is no tradition that she was buried alive either.

The tradition does not include any eyewitnesses of her rising to heaven, in spite of some popular depiction in art.

No city has claimed to have her remains and there is no cult of relics for her. Everyone belived she had died, and everyone believed she was assumed to heaven from her tomb.

That’s the tradition.

All of this other stuff is a “what-if” and “wouldn’t you think” long after the fact. No one suggested she may have been alive when she was assumed until centuries later, and as we say, the church has never ruled on whether she was alive or not because it was not ever considered in question. The older tradition is clear.

It’s like a lot of other questions we could ask about her:

How long did she live?

Did she ever travel to Rome? Did she ever meet Paul?

Was she conversant in Greek or possibly even Latin?

Did she have visions?

The questions could come up today and we would say “of course she spoke Greek!” and “of course she had visions!” or whatever because we might think it only fitting for the Mother of God.

But the church doesn’t rule on stuff like that because it’s just not important, later someone might claim that she did or didn’t do something but they cannot know, it’s the same with the later belief of the alive assumption. We are making this stuff up as we speak and it’s unhealthy.

 

[metal1633]

MariaG:

Also, I have been thinking. I find it interesting that her death was not included in the declaration. Could that be that even though The pope thought she had died, many theologians thought she had died, the Holy Spirit kept the church free from error by having that declared as such because she may not have died? It is entirely possible, but the point is, Our Blessed Mother’s death was not included in the decree and as such I am not bound one way or another.

He death was removed from the decree intentionally by Pope PiusXII for the express purpose of continuing theological discussion on the subject. Dont be bound by legalism. Nit picking which part is binding and which isnt . We are required to hold to all the Traditions. Whether or not all thologians agree on it is irrelevant.

"we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma:
that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."

Please note what else was left out. Her Crowning as Queen of Heaven. Do you think that belief is optional too?

The Decree is 47 paragraphs long and it ALL must be taken into consideration because the Pope spent most of those paragraphs explaining the Traditions on this issue.