Did Mary die?

[rod_of_iron]

MariaG:

Sacred Tradition is the body of oral teachings. There would be oral teachings before the last apostle died. I think you misunderstood or I typed incorrectly. The oral teachings of the church, Sacred Tradition, are not NEW Revelation. They are part of the same revelation as inspired Scripture, and no NEW revelation is part of Sacred Tradition. The definition of NEW being something added after the death of the last apostle. I hope that is a little clearer.

I noticed that you stopped posting in the other topic you started about the spoken word, after I said that the verse you quoted did not say there are two different traditions – the one written and the other spoken. So, if the same traditions were taught both orally and by epistle, depending on the circumstances, I still want to know where this divine revelation is that is not scriptural. Vincent said that divine revelation is not limited to Scripture. I ask again – where else is it found?

 

[Totus_Tuus]

“Sin is what kills humans. If Mary died, she had to be sinful. Also, if Mary died, it would mean that she was not as righteous as Enoch and Elijah, who both were translated into heaven without dying.”

I think it was bob who pointed out that Pope Puis XII defined the Assumption thus:

“Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

Emphasis on ‘having completed the course of her earthly life’. The Church is silent on whether she died or not. Her life was complete and then she went to heaven.

“You have an empty tomb for Mary??? Yet, Catholics on this forum have told me that there is no tomb for Mary, because she was assumed to heaven. If there is an empty tomb for Mary, would this not mean that she died and was buried?”

I think that whoever said that may have been speaking figuratively. There’s ‘an empty tomb’ as in, there is no body anywhere. Christians always wanted to have the remains of saints and vied for that honor. Rome has St. Peter’s, for example. Strangely enough, there was nobody even claiming Mary’s because they were not to be had. And who honestly wouldn’t want his own city to be the resting place of the body of God’s mother? Oh, she may not be mentioned nearly as many times as Peter and gang, but whether you want to believe it or not, she was there most of his life. She was there to bring him into the world, she was at the foot of the cross when he left it, and she seems to me (at least partially) responsible for his first miracle among other things.

By the way, rod of iron, your mention of Enoch and Elijah brings something else to mind though it is a bit off topic. The Bible says that all have died. Seems to me that that is either incorrect, or “all” is a huge generalization meaning ‘except in certain cases granted by God’ So what’s the problem with the idea that all have sinned? This too is a broad generalization. Jesus was a man and yet he didn’t sin. Neither did Mary, specially saved from sin from all eternity by God. Young children below the age of reason and the mentally handicapped who cannot reason do not sin either.

 

[MariaG]

Dear Rod of Iron,

I stopped posting not because you have a question that cannot be answered, but because it has been answered on the last forum many times in different ways and I just attempted to do it again. Obviously the way Justin and I were trying to explain things did not make sense to you.

One more time:

Vincent said that divine revelation is not limited to Scripture. I ask again – where else is it found?

That would be Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the body of oral teachings of the Apostles.

I can’t state it any clearer than this. I’m truly sorry if you do not understand.
God Bless

 

[metal1633]

My goodness people. Have none of you read MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS, The Apostolic Constitution defining “ex cathedra” the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin by Pius XII??The Pope makes REPEATED referance to her death. The Church is NOT Silent on this issue. The Liturgies of the Church make repeated referances to her death. Popes, Saints, Fathers and Doctors of the Church hace made repeated referances to her death. The Church of the Assumption in Jerusalem, at the foot of the Mount of Olives, is built on her TOMB. An empty tomb.

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” From the *Sacramentarium Gregorianum by *Pope Adrian I

 

[MariaG]

by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma:

that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

In the definition of the dogma, it is as everyone has been saying, **having completed the course of her earthly life. **It does not say upon her death nor does it say before her last breath expired from her body.

While it is appears to me from reading the document the Pius XII may believe Mary died, whether or not Mary died before being assumed into heaven is not part of the infallible decree.

Homer’s original question asked specifically about her death. Death is not the same as Assumption. Nor is “having completed the course of her earthly life” declaring Mary died.

 

[metal1633]

MariaG:

In the definition of the dogma, it is as everyone has been saying, **having completed the course of her earthly life. **It does not say upon her death nor does it say before her last breath expired from her body.

While it is appears to me from reading the document the Pius XII may believe Mary died, whether or not Mary died before being assumed into heaven is not part of the infallible decree.

Homer’s original question asked specifically about her death. Death is not the same as Assumption. Nor is “having completed the course of her earthly life” declaring Mary died.

It may not be a part of the decree but it is the Tradition of the Church and a part of its prayers and liturgy for 1900 years and as such is an Infallable teaching. One must interpreate Infallable Decrees in the Context of the Churches Tradition. " having completed the course of her earthly life" would therefore equal temporal death.

 

[MariaG]

posted by metal1633
It may not be a part of the decree but it is the Tradition of the Church and a part of its prayers and liturgy for 1900 years and as such is an Infallable teaching. One must interpreate Infallable Decrees in the Context of the Churches Tradition. " having completed the course of her earthly life" would therefore equal temporal death.

After looking up the word “temporal” , I would agree that those two statements would be eqaul. But temporal death and simply *death *I would define as two separate things. I see temporal death as the end of her time on earth and I do not believe it addresses whether or not her heart stopped beating before the course of her earthly life ended. And I know when I say the church is silent on Mary’s death, I am not referring to her temporal death, but whether or not Mary’s physical body stopped working before she was assumed into heaven. Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

Thanks and God Bless
Maria

 

[metal1633]

MariaG:

After looking up the word “temporal” , I would agree that those two statements would be eqaul. But temporal death and simply *death *I would define as two separate things. I see temporal death as the end of her time on earth and I do not believe it addresses whether or not her heart stopped beating before the course of her earthly life ended. And I know when I say the church is silent on Mary’s death, I am not referring to her temporal death, but whether or not Mary’s physical body stopped working before she was assumed into heaven. Do you disagree with this? If so, why?

Thanks and God Bless

Maria

It means her heart stopped beating. She died in the presence of the Apostles and was placed in a TOMB. I have been there. I have been to Mass in the Blessed Mothers TOMB.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Totus Tuus:

I think it was bob who pointed out that Pope Puis XII defined the Assumption thus:

“Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

Emphasis on ‘having completed the course of her earthly life’. The Church is silent on whether she died or not. Her life was complete and then she went to heaven.

Really? So, Pope Pius XII received this as a revelation from God? Unless this was given by divine revelation, I don’t see why I would give this statement any credence. If not by divine revelation, what did this pope make his decision about the assumption of Mary on?

If this doctrine about Mary was not officially declared by the church until 1950, this would mean that in 1950, the pope officially added a new doctrine to the church. Of course, you can claim that the assumption of Mary was widely believed before the official declaration was made in 1950. But once it was officially declared to be true, must not all Catholics now believe it to be true, whereas before, it was not mandatory? I could be wrong, but I would think that the purpose of the pope declaring something to be true is to unify all saints in believing that thing. Once the assumption of Mary was officially declared to be true by the pope, did it become sinful to not believe this to be true? What happens to a Catholic if he or she voices opposition to the doctrine of the assumption of Mary, or delcares that he or she does not believe that it happened?

 

[rod_of_iron]

MariaG:

Dear Rod of Iron,

I stopped posting not because you have a question that cannot be answered, but because it has been answered on the last forum many times in different ways and I just attempted to do it again. Obviously the way Justin and I were trying to explain things did not make sense to you.

One more time:

That would be Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the body of oral teachings of the Apostles.

I can’t state it any clearer than this. I’m truly sorry if you do not understand.
God Bless

But that verse you have quoted before from 2 Thessalonians said that the same traditions were taught, both orally and in writing. It is so plain.

Are you claiming that Sacred Tradition has never been written down? If so, how do you know that you have been taught the same things that others taught orally in the centuries before you?

 

[rod_of_iron]

metal1633:

It means her heart stopped beating. She died in the presence of the Apostles and was placed in a TOMB. I have been there. I have been to Mass in the Blessed Mothers TOMB.

If this is true, then it tells me that Mary was sinful just like everyone else, except Jesus, has been. The Bible says that death is the wages of sin. Sin is what kills humans. Therefore, sin is what killed Mary.

I still find it unfathomable to suggest that Mary was born of parents who had been born with original sin, yet she is not also born with it.

 

[metal1633]

rod of iron:

If this is true, then it tells me that Mary was sinful just like everyone else, except Jesus, has been. The Bible says that death is the wages of sin. Sin is what kills humans. Therefore, sin is what killed Mary.

I still find it unfathomable to suggest that Mary was born of parents who had been born with original sin, yet she is not also born with it.

Mary was free of Original sin by the pure Grace of God. Her Parents had nothing to do with it. The Church teaches that “The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. **But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam – from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.” **

 

[MariaG]

posted by metal1633
It means her heart stopped beating. She died in the presence of the Apostles and was placed in a TOMB. I have been there. I have been to Mass in the Blessed Mothers TOMB.

Could you please give more information on this. I have never heard this before. I won’t be lazy and will do the search myself, but it would be nice if you could point in the right direction.
Thanks,
Maria

 

[rod_of_iron]

metal1633:

Mary was free of Original sin by the pure Grace of God. Her Parents had nothing to do with it. The Church teaches that “The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. **But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam – from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.” **

But this original sin is what makes it possibly for our bodies to die. God said in Genesis 2:17 – "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Original sin was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and in their rebellion, partook of the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of that disobedience, the curse has been passed down on all of Adam’s decendents. That curse is death. But it is not an immediate death. God has given us all a probationary period on Earth before we die, so that we can prepare to meet God and choose the salvation that He provided for us through the atonement of Jesus for us. Mary is one of the descendents of Adam and Eve, and would have to have had original sin within her, or she would not have been capable of dying.

Adam and Eve were not born with the curse of original sin. They were the ones who committed this original sin, which has been passed on to all their descendents. To say that Mary was not born with original sin is to say that she is not of the same species that we are. This would mean that Mary was not human. To suggest that God decided to exempt Mary from being born of original sin just because Gabriel called her, “Full of grace”, is quite the stretch of the imagination. If this was really true, why doesn’t the Bible spell it out more clearly for us?

The seed is passed on through the male of the species. Everyone descending from Adam, including Mary, has had a human father, except Jesus. He did not have an Earthly father, so He was not a result of human seed. This means that original sin was not passed on to Him. Mary had a human father, so she was a result of human seed, which means that she had original sin.

The Catholic church may teach differently than this, but such a case where God would exempt a person from original sin would make God a respector of persons.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Rod of Iron

But that verse you have quoted before from 2 Thessalonians said that the same traditions were taught, both orally and in writing. It is so plain.

Are you claiming that Sacred Tradition has never been written down? If so, how do you know that you have been taught the same things that others taught orally in the centuries before you?
It is so plain it took you over a hundred posts and several days to come up with your interpretation. I am not being sarcastic, I am just pointing out to you it is NOT “so plain” because it took you days to come up with a NEW way to look at the Scripture.
As to the other, once again, it has been addressed repeatedly.

This thread is about Mary, this is the last I will discuss this issue with you. If you wish to further the discussion, take it back to the thread “Where is the spoken word” or start a new one. Although I am done trying to explain, maybe someone else will be willing to try, although that discussion was supposed to be to Bible alone Christians, and as a Revelation Saint this does not describe you. Sad that only one Christian who does believe in Bible alone even tried to answer where the spoken word is if the Catholic Church is incorrect.
God Bless,
Maria

p.s. oops, sorry I forgot about you curious! you were there once too. Maybe one or two others made brief appearances, but for the most part, it was simply one person.

 

[metal1633]

MariaG:

Could you please give more information on this. I have never heard this before. I won’t be lazy and will do the search myself, but it would be nice if you could point in the right direction.
Thanks,
Maria

Which part? Her Tomb? It is outside the Old City of Jerusalem, accross the Kidron at the foot of the Mount of Olives. Here is a Photo and some Info. You might want to look into the history of the Feast of the Assumption and also the Liturgical Traditions associated with it. Here is a page from a University website on the Assumption. The Ancient Churches of the East have the Oldest Traditions related to the Assumption. We were celebrating it before the West and the Western Traditions come from the East.

The dogma of the Assumption has a narrow scope. Concerning Mary’s death the dogma is non-committal. This was intentional. There is still much to discover concerning what happened to her. As it stands now both opinions are acceptable and accepted: Mary’s death, resurrection and glorification as well as glorification at the end of her life without death. However, the majority of modern theologians seem to admit Mary’s death as does the Traditions of the Church.

1st Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

 

[coralewis]

4th Glorious Mystery: Assumption of Mary into heaven, body and soul…I believe she was taken up alive.

 

[MariaG]

metal1633,
Thanks, I especially liked the Meditation on the Assumption site.

 

[rod_of_iron]

metal1633:

Which part? Her Tomb? It is outside the Old City of Jerusalem, accross the Kidron at the foot of the Mount of Olives. Here is a Photo and some Info. You might want to look into the history of the Feast of the Assumption and also the Liturgical Traditions associated with it. Here is a page from a University website on the Assumption. The Ancient Churches of the East have the Oldest Traditions related to the Assumption. We were celebrating it before the West and the Western Traditions come from the East.

The dogma of the Assumption has a narrow scope. Concerning Mary’s death the dogma is non-committal. This was intentional. There is still much to discover concerning what happened to her. As it stands now both opinions are acceptable and accepted: Mary’s death, resurrection and glorification as well as glorification at the end of her life without death. However, the majority of modern theologians seem to admit Mary’s death as does the Traditions of the Church.

1st Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

If Mary did die, what did she die of? How old was she when she died? Original sin causes all of us to die. If Mary did not have original sin, she could not have died naturally. Why would a tomb be erected for someone who could not die?

 

[metal1633]

rod of iron:

Original sin causes all of us to die. If Mary did not have original sin, she could not have died naturally.

That is theological speculation at best. Pope Pius XII says that by her Immaculate Conception she was exempt from the Corruption of remaining in the Grave. The Liturgy of the Church makes amny referances to her death…

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” From the *Sacramentarium Gregorianum by *Pope Adrian I

The Church teaches that “The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. **But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam – from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.” **