Did Mary ever sin?

[whosebob]

(continued from above)

I recommend you read the entire article in the 1913 C.E. (and related ones, e.g. Concupiscence, Justification, Immaculate Conception) in order to grasp the “bigger picture” that frames this Catholic dogma. But one way to “nutshell” this matter in terms of the above the considerations is to understand that the Blessed Virgin Mary was filled with the God’s grace – that is, the Holy Spirit dwelt within her soul – from the moment she was conceived. She was then preserved from all of those “stains” – termed “concupiscence” in Western Catholic theology – which are logically secondary consequence of that privation which is suffered by all other progeny of Adam and Eve; but like her son Jesus Christ, “she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam – from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death” – and like Him she suffered such evils as an innocent.

Here is something the late Fr. William Most wrote in his course Our Lady in Doctrine and Devotion:

Regarding Luke 1:28, in Chapter 4:

If we turn to philology: the Greek word in the Gospel is kecharitomene. It is a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo. A perfect passive participle is very strong. In addition, charitoo belongs to a group of verbs ending in omicron omega. They have in common that they mean to put a person or thing into the state indicated by the root. Thus leukos means white, so leukoo means to make white. Then charitoo should mean to put into charis. That word charis can mean either favor or grace. But if we translate by favor, we must keep firmly in mind that favor must not mean merely that God, as it were, sits there and smiles at someone, without giving anything. That would be Pelagian: salvation possible without grace. So for certain, God does give something, and that something is grace. So charitoo means to put into grace. But then too, kecharitomene is used in place of the name Mary. This is like our English usage in which we say, for example, someone is Mr. Tennis. That means he is the ultimate in tennis. so then kecharitomene should mean “Miss Grace”, the ultimate in grace. - Hence we could reason that fulness of grace implies an Immaculate Conception.

I would state for my own part, in the interests of clarity, that Mary’s “special status” in this regard is not given to her as a matter of desert – it was a gift to Mary from God, given in order to best prepare her to be the worthy mother of the Son of God. Consider this prayer which is prayed publicly by the Western Catholic Church on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, and at other times too, such as at the conclusion of the private devotion known as the Chaplet of the Ten Evangelical Virtues of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

Father You prepared the Virgin Mary to be the worthy Mother of Your Son. You let her share beforehand in the salvation Christ would bring by His death, and kept her sinless from the first moment of her conception. Help us by her prayers to live in Your presence without sin. We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, Your Son, Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM;1690023:

No, I don’t believe that Jesus has sinned, which means that when Paul writes “all have sinned” he doesn’t mean “each and every person ever”. He doesn’t mean Christ, and he doesn’t mean e.g. stillborn babies, for neither have sinned

.

As I asked earlier, what sin has a stillborn baby committed?

Hi,
I posted an answer to your question a few posts up about stillborn babies.

Remeber Jesus was also fully God which I know you believe and we know God cannot sin so therefore Jesus cannot sin. He came to take away our sins so He couldnt. But, the rest of humanity did.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

we know that not everyone has died, enoch and elija were taken up to heaven they never experianced physical death.

Hi, Where in Scripture does it say this. I honestly dont know?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi, Where in Scripture does it say this. I honestly dont know?

Truly we don’t know if Enoch died.
Moses didn’t write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he “was not found, because God had translated him” (Hebrews 11:5).

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Truly we don’t know if Enoch died.
Moses didn’t write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he “was not found, because God had translated him” (Hebrews 11:5).

Hi,
Thanks. So I guess it remains a mystery.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Truly we don’t know if Enoch died.
Moses didn’t write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that “Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he “was not found, because God had translated him” (Hebrews 11:5).

Furthermore…
The original Greek word for “translate” is metatithem meaning is to “convey to another place . . . transfer”

The same Greek word is rendered “carried over” in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob died his body was “carried over”—transported, translated—to Sychem where he was buried! Jacob was transported or translated to the place of burial!

That is why Moses said that God took Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Furthermore…
The original Greek word for “translate” is metatithem meaning is to “convey to another place . . . transfer”

The same Greek word is rendered “carried over” in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob died his body was “carried over”—transported, translated—to Sychem where he was buried! Jacob was transported or translated to the place of burial!

That is why Moses said that God took Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!

Hi,
Didnt God do the same thing with Moses and probably Mary because she was never found either?

 

[NotWorthy]

Remeber Jesus was also fully God which I know you believe and we know God cannot sin so therefore Jesus cannot sin. He came to take away our sins so He couldnt. But, the rest of humanity did.

OK, we ALL agree that Jesus is Truly God, and thus He couldn’t sin. But Jesus is also Truly Man, so when Paul says, “All have sinned”, He can’t mean ALL, because Jesus is part of this All.

Vocimike’s point about stillborn babies still applies. If they haven’t sinned (the stain or Original Sin is not sin of itself) then how can “All have sinned”?

By the same token:

Romans
3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

Is no one righteous? For the Bible says that Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God as well as several others.

3:11
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

Does no one seek God? No one?

3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

No one does good??? No one?

Do you get my point?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi,
Didnt God do the same thing with Moses and probably Mary because she was never found either?

Yes, we’re getting a lil off thread, but when Catholics use this as reasoning for Mary’s assumption it gets a lil old. I don’t believe their Church itself even translates it as such…

 

[squeekster]

And the best thing you could can back with, since you were unable to defend your interpretation, was that our Church was, “twisted” untrue and counter to the Word of God… Being counter to your fallible interpretation of Scripture does not equal being counter to the Word of God no matter how much you will it. Great advice by the way, I will stick with the Word of God on this and not take the opinion of a “bunch of men” (your) word on it.

It isn’t MY “fallible” interpretation.

In Romans 3:23 God VERY PLAINLY says
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

And in Romans 5:12, God again VERY PLAINLY says
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

Notice what is MISSING in both of those passages? (Not to mention everywhere else in Scripture.) That’s right. An exception for Mary. Did God forget to add that little tidbit of information? I don’t think so.

So you can keep your lame arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and take them up with God. HE is the one that said all have sinned. As I already said, I will side with God on this one.

I honestly do not know what the unnatural and unScriptural focus is all about with Mary in the Catholic church. It goes WAY beyond anything that can be considered paying normal honor. It’s all about Mary. Mary this and Mary that. Mary, Mary, Mary. Pray to Mary. Crawl on hands and knees til they are bloody to a Shrine made to Mary. Follow statues of Mary all around streets. It’s pathetic.

 

[whosebob]

Hi,
Didnt God do the same thing with Moses and probably Mary because she was never found either?

JMJ + OBT​

Regarding the body of Moses, there is a reference to the apocryphal text the Assumption Moses in Jude 1:9:

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” (Jude 1:9 [RSV])

As for the Blessed Virgin Mary, it is a belief of Apostolic origin that after she “fell asleep” [died] at the end of her earthly life, she was given to share in the Resurrection of Christ, was taken up to Heaven body and soul (see also “PART VI. Post-Pentecostal Life of Mary” in the 1913 C.E. article on Mary), and now lives in Heaven together with Jesus and the souls of those men and women who died in God’s friendship, all awaiting the Final Judgment and the General Resurrection.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[VociMike]

Hi,
I posted an answer to your question a few posts up about stillborn babies.

Remeber Jesus was also fully God which I know you believe and we know God cannot sin so therefore Jesus cannot sin. He came to take away our sins so He couldnt. But, the rest of humanity did.

But Paul didn’t say “all except Jesus have sinned”. He said “all have sinned”. Now either “all” means each and every one without exception, or “all” allows for exceptions. Once we all agree that “all” allows for exceptions then the verse cannot be used to prove that Mary sinned, just as it cannot be used to prove that a stillborn baby has sinned.

 

[patrick457]

But, just as Paul didn’t say, ‘All has sinned except Mary’, He also did not say ‘All has sinned including Mary’.

That’s the problem with Sola Scriptura. You shouldn’t expect that all the Doctrines of the Faith would appear explicitly on the pages of the Bible.

Nor does ‘Sola Scriptura’ appear there, actually. So, judging by your reason, we should not believe doctrines that aren’t explicitly revealed in the Bible, right?

Now, give us some reason WHY Catholics shouldn’t give Mary honor as the one who carried the Lord Jesus in her womb for nine months.

 

[patrick457]

It isn’t MY “fallible” interpretation.

In Romans 3:23 God VERY PLAINLY says
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

And in Romans 5:12, God again VERY PLAINLY says
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

Notice what is MISSING in both of those passages? (Not to mention everywhere else in Scripture.) That’s right. An exception for Mary. Did God forget to add that little tidbit of information? I don’t think so.

So you can keep your lame arguments for the sinlessness of Mary and take them up with God. HE is the one that said all have sinned. As I already said, I will side with God on this one.

I honestly do not know what the unnatural and unScriptural focus is all about with Mary in the Catholic church. It goes WAY beyond anything that can be considered paying normal honor. It’s all about Mary. Mary this and Mary that. Mary, Mary, Mary. Pray to Mary. Crawl on hands and knees til they are bloody to a Shrine made to Mary. Follow statues of Mary all around streets. It’s pathetic.

But, just as Paul didn’t say, ‘All has sinned except Mary’, He also did not say ‘All has sinned including Mary’.

That’s the problem with Sola Scriptura. You shouldn’t expect that all the Doctrines of the Faith would appear explicitly on the pages of the Bible.

Nor does ‘Sola Scriptura’ appear there, actually. So, judging by your reason, we should not believe doctrines that aren’t explicitly revealed in the Bible, right?

And, one more question. If it isn’t your fallible interpretation, then how did you know what those passages mean? who told you?

Now, give us some reason WHY Catholics shouldn’t give Mary honor as the one who carried the Lord Jesus in her womb for nine months.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Notice what is MISSING in both of those passages? (Not to mention everywhere else in Scripture.) That’s right. An exception for Mary. Did God forget to add that little tidbit of information? I don’t think so.

There also is no exception for Jesus. Nor for children or the mentally handicapped, but what sins has a infant committed? What sins did Jesus commit?

It isn’t MY “fallible” interpretation.

Yea it is

I honestly do not know what the unnatural and unScriptural focus is all about with Mary in the Catholic church. It goes WAY beyond anything that can be considered paying normal honor. It’s all about Mary. Mary this and Mary that. Mary, Mary, Mary. Pray to Mary. Crawl on hands and knees til they are bloody to a Shrine made to Mary. Follow statues of Mary all around streets. It’s pathetic.

As is your Christian witness

 

[squeekster]

As is your Christian witness

Is that your infallible opinion?

If you want to believe (Edited for respect and charity), I can’t stop you. You can explain why you believed all that (Edited for respect and charity) when you are standing before God at the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[whosebob]

Notice what is MISSING in both of those passages? (Not to mention everywhere else in Scripture.) That’s right. An exception for Mary. Did God forget to add that little tidbit of information? I don’t think so.

JMJ + OBT​

Dear squeeskter, may Our Lord bless you and may the prayers of the Holy Mother of God draw you closer to the Sacred Heart of her Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

As another forums member has noted, you have to understand such passages in the broader context of the whole of Sacred Scripture or you will end up with apparent contradictions; not to mention that you’re not “playing with a full deck” if you aren’t reading Scripture in the broader context of the whole of the Apostolic teaching, which has been faithfully transmitted for roughly 2,000 years by the Church with Christ founded to be the “pillar and bulwark of truth” (cf. 1 Tim 3:15).

Your arguments might have more weight if, for example, you can show us which book, chapter, and verse gives the Table of Contents for the Holy Bible? That’s a topic for another thread, but it must be readily admitted that such information has been provided and passed on by the working of the Holy Spirit apart from the text of the Bible itself. Something interesting happens if we “ask” the early Christians and their pastors – by reading their extant writings – how they understood the Holy Spirit to have worked in Church to transmit the uncorrupted teaching of the Apostles, and whether this was limited to the text and “tables of contents” of the Old and New Testaments: Apostolic Tradition, Documents illustrating the coordinate authority of Sacred Tradition, Oral Apostolic Tradition.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[squeekster]

I just love it. I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years and I’ve been reading Scripture for at least that long. And in all that time, the ONLY ONES that believe I don’t know what I’m talking about are the Catholics.

(Edited for respect and charity)

Have a nice day.

 

[patrick457]

I just love it. I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years and I’ve been reading Scripture for at least that long. And in all that time, the ONLY ONES that believe I don’t know what I’m talking about are the Catholics.

(Edited for respect and charity)

Have a nice day.

At least ‘To know history is to cease to be Protestant’.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

At least ‘To know history is to cease to be Protestant’.

(Edited for respect and charity) I would prefer you called us Christian! though there be plenty to protest, protesting would give recognition to an organization that falsely claims a stature it does not rightly have, based on history itself, rather a lack of.
But I digress none of this has anything to do with Mary and her sinlessness or lack thereof.