Did Mary ever sin?

[patrick457]

I just love it. I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years and I’ve been reading Scripture for at least that long. And in all that time, the ONLY ONES that believe I don’t know what I’m talking about are the Catholics.

(Edited for respect and charity)

Have a nice day.

At least when Jesus taught, no one, even His disciples, also knew what He is talking about.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I came across this verse:
**45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. **Notice she was blessed because she believed also a requirement for us.
**46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, **She certainly isnt magnifying herself here.
**47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. **Im most curious about this verse. If Mary was sinless, why would she need a Saviour? She obviously had the Holy Spirit in her and acknowledged God as her Savior. From what I understand only sinners need a Savior.

 

[squeekster]

Hi,
From what I understand only sinners need a Savior.

Exactly. Well, except for the (Edited for respect and charity) “theology” of the RCC.

 

[patrick457]

Let’s say for example that you are near a pit. You slipped andfell down but someone prevented you from falling. You were ‘saved’ or ‘rescued’ from falling there, right?The same thing goes there. Mary doesn’t need to have sin when She said God is Her Savior. He might have ‘saved’ her from having sin. After all, you do not limit the word to those who were inside the pit and then rescued, right?

 

[NotWorthy]

Squeekster? MyFavoriteMartin? AllforHim?

How have babies that died within months of being born sinned?

How does this fit in with “All have sinned”?

Couldn’t Paul be referencing a quote from one of the Psalms when he says, “All have sinned”? Shouldn’t this be addressed before one can determine the context of his statement, “For all have sinned”???

(BTW AFH, the pain is gone in my knees!!! Yea!!!)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Squeekster? MyFavoriteMartin? AllforHim?

How have babies that died within months of being born sinned?

How does this fit in with “All have sinned”?

Couldn’t Paul be referencing a quote from one of the Psalms when he says, “All have sinned”? Shouldn’t this be addressed before one can determine the context of his statement, “For all have sinned”???

(BTW AFH, the pain is gone in my knees!!! Yea!!!)

Hi,
Yeah are you running yet?
About the baby questio please read my post #13:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Let’s say for example that you are near a pit. You slipped andfell down but someone prevented you from falling. You were ‘saved’ or ‘rescued’ from falling there, right?The same thing goes there. Mary doesn’t need to have sin when She said God is Her Savior. He might have ‘saved’ her from having sin. After all, you do not limit the word to those who were inside the pit and then rescued, right?

Hi,
Then why wouldnt we be told of this?

 

[VociMike]

From what I understand only sinners need a Savior.

Do stillborn babies need a Savior? Are they sinners?

 

[VociMike]

Hi,
Then why wouldnt we be told of this?

Your question reveals the problem. We are told of this. We are told of it by Christ’s Church, which has passed down the deposit of faith from the apostles. You only think we haven’t been told because you improperly define “told” to mean “found explicitly in Scripture”.

It’s as though Mr. Jones insisted on only using the front half of the phone book, and then complained that Mrs. Smith was not found in the phone book.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Do stillborn babies need a Savior? Are they sinners?

Yes, but IMHO God in His infinite mercy took those babies into heaven and are with Christ.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

.

You only think we haven’t been told because you improperly define “told” to mean “found explicitly in Scripture”.

No argument there
Another questio. The CC states that Sacred Tradition cannot contradict the bible but I believe this topic does. If the bible is telling us that ALL sinned and then Sacred Tradition is saying except Mary well-----

 

[VociMike]

Yes, but IMHO God in His infinite mercy took those babies into heaven and are with Christ.

I continue to ask, what sin has a stillborn baby committed. “All have sinned” must mean that stillborn babies have sinned. So how have they sinned?

 

[VociMike]

. No argument there
Another questio. The CC states that Sacred Tradition cannot contradict the bible but I believe this topic does. If the bible is telling us that ALL sinned and then Sacred Tradition is saying except Mary well-----

So what sins has a stillborn baby committed?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I continue to ask, what sin has a stillborn baby committed. “All have sinned” must mean that stillborn babies have sinned. So how have they sinned?

Unfortunately they like us are saddled with original sin. Of course they have not committed a sin but because of the fall we all fall short of the glory of God.

 

[whosebob]

If Mary was sinless, why would she need a Saviour? She obviously had the Holy Spirit in her and acknowledged God as her Savior. From what I understand only sinners need a Savior.

Exactly. Well, except for the (Edited for respect and charity) “theology” of the RCC.

JMJ + OBT​

Please carefully read the posts I made earlier in this thread, along with the materials I linked to in those posts, and you will find the answers to your question.

But to give a quick and direct answer (which is somewhat a summary of what I’ve previously written and linked to): Mary was conceived in the womb of her mother in the ordinary way, consequent to the love-making of her parents; but God intervened at the moment of her conception and provided a special gift to Mary, the gift of sanctifying grace, which meant that she never suffered that lack of grace which is the hereditary stain transmitted to all of the descendants of Adam and Eve, as the effect of A&E’s Original Sin.

Usually that lack (or “privation”) of grace is suffered by all human beings from the time they are conceived until the time they receive Holy Baptism; that privation results in logically secondary “stains” or disorders of human nature which Catholics group under the term “concupiscence”, which can be broadly described as an inclination to sin. Mary, though, having never suffered this privation likewise never suffered from concupiscence; and in correspondence with God’s grace she never committed a personal sin throughout the whole of her life on Earth.

But why did God freely impart this unique gift to Mary? The Church answers that question in her public prayer, the collect for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception: “[to] prepare [her] to be the worthy Mother of [the Father’s] Son”.

And in view of what did God favor her in this way? Pope Pius IX stated the answer in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus: “the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

So yes, Mary needed the Savior, just as all human persons need Him. But, as God freely chose to create her in grace – in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, in order to best prepare her to be the mother of Jesus – Mary did not suffer from Original Sin; and living in that grace in obedience to God’s holy will, she remained sinless throughout her earthly life.

Does that make sense?

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Does that make sense?

No noat all. But I do appreciate your effort in explaining it and so I dont bother you anymore I will say I think we have to agree to disagree.

 

[whosebob]

. No argument there
Another questio. The CC states that Sacred Tradition cannot contradict the bible but I believe this topic does. If the bible is telling us that ALL sinned and then Sacred Tradition is saying except Mary well-----

JMJ + OBT​

You may find the information provided on ScriptureCatholic.com to be helpful as you study the Holy Bible; here is a relevant selection from the page on Mary:

IX. Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

May Our Lord bless you and strengthen you as you strive to live in obedience to His holy will, in imitation of His Son; and may the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary help you to carry on in this struggle when “the going gets rough.”

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[VociMike]

Unfortunately they like us are saddled with original sin. Of course they have not committed a sin …

Well there it is then. “All have sinned” does not mean that stillborn babies have sinned. So there are exceptions.

I note again that Paul did not say “all are born in sin” or “all are stained by sin” or “all are affected by sin”. He said “all have sinned”. And yet stillborn babies have not sinned.

 

[starrball]

God says ALL, including Mary, have sinned.
The RCC says all, EXCEPT Mary, have sinned.

God says all are born with original sin. That is slightly different. But it is also true that Mary was concieved without the stain of original sin. That is the Immaculate Conception. The womb that nurtured our Lord had to be pure.

 

[whosebob]

No noat all.

JMJ + OBT​

I’m sorry that I didn’t do a better job. Which part(s) of my explanation didn’t make sense?

But I do appreciate your effort in explaining it and so I dont bother you anymore I will say I think we have to agree to disagree.

I will leave it up to you whether to continue the discussion, but you’re not bothering me or anyone else who is participating in this thread. We are glad to try and help you understand this beautiful teaching of the Catholic Church.

“Agreeing to disagree” has its place in matters of personal taste, but when it comes to the Truth, I don’t think such a retreat has any place in the life of a believer, other than as providing a moment in which to regather one’s strength for future studies and dialogue.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA