did Mary have fallen human nature?

[Good_Fella]

You said, "Adam and Eve were obviously sinless, but the Bible does not explicitly state: Adam and Eve were created sinless.

Does God need to explicitly state the obvious??

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I was going to ask you the same question?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

Yes I understand that the Bible is Gods written word and that He gave us His written word.

Yes I understand when someone can’t present evidence from the Scriptures that show Mary didn’t have a fallen human nature, that they then resort to personal attacks.

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Scriptural evidence has already been presented, but you choose to ignore it: Genesis 3, 15; Gabriel’s greeting to Mary in the Annunciation; Luke’s comparison of Mary with the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant. The Church had already regarded the mother of our Lord sinless by the time Luke wrote his gospel. The parallel he draws between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant reflects this traditional belief. Sacred Tradition preceded the New Testament. Jesus founded a Church on his Apostles; He didn’t write and publish a Holy Book; nor did He commission his disciples to write the New Testament.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

EmeraldIsle said: Can you not understand that the Lord Jesus is fully God & Man and all the rest of humanity is fully human.

Yes we can. Jesus is fully Man and Jesus is fully God. No arguement.

Also can you not understand that God says in His written word that the Lord Jesus is sinless.

Yes, no argument there. Holy Scripture attest that Jesus is an exception. Holy Documents do not attest to that he is only exception.

Do you not understand that God says in His written word that all of humanity that came from Adam is sinful.

Yes and Jesus was part of that humanity. He took on our Humanity.

Do you not understand that the Lord Jesus didn’t come from Adam.

Understood to be yes with respect to Joseph not being the sire. Understood to be a no since the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary with divineness and caused her ovary to be fertilized by some mechinism that is not physical, but spiritual which no one can adequate explain(that is why it is a mystery) and the Holy Spirit infused the ovary with a divine essence.

Do you not understand that Mary did come from Adam and so she was a sinner.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

That is where you have fallen into Peter’s warning and you do not heed it :

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

EmeraldIsle, you have been led aside by the proven error of unwise protestantism, you have fallen in your faith in Christ, repent now, for if Jesus comes back this very instant, I can’t say for surety that you will go to heaven. The fruits of thy own error weigh heavily against thee. Repent now before it is too late.

 

[sandusky]

franjos:

Secondly, since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus took His flesh alone from Mary, because He has no biological father.

Having said this two important facts, and analyzing it, we could say that the crucial genetic information (if not all) from Mary can be transfered to the flesh of Jesus.

Therefore, if Mary is a sinner, then the flesh of Jesus would also contain these genetic information of being sinful. If Jesus inherited this sinfulness from Mary, then He is also a slave of the devil, and it will lead him to eternal death.

Then Mary inherited her sinfulness from both of her parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, and so on back to Adam and Eve; correct?

 

[Seagirt]

That’s not what the early Church fathers thought.

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

These are all good points. I don’t think anything can convince our Reformed friend, Emeraldisle, about Mary. The word Bible does not appear in the Bible , so I guess it does not exist ! LOL Comprende’

• via con Dios.

 

[Thing]

Then Mary inherited her sinfulness from both of her parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, and so on back to Adam and Eve; correct?

Is one sinful in heaven?

 

[sandusky]

Is one sinful in heaven?

What do you think?

 

[Thing]

What do you think?

I think there are billions of sinless people living in heaven.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus said that “Few” would be saved. few does not equate to billions.

 

[Thing]

Jesus said that “Few” would be saved. few does not equate to billions.

It may if there are zillions of people born.

 

[Thing]

Do people in heaven have a fallen human nature?

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle;3692155:

If you’re going to take that verse from Paul without qualification,then Jesus was a sinner.
He was fully a man and well as fully God.

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

< For example, when we first meet Mary in Scripture, in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets her with the phrase: “Hail, Full of Grace” – a phrase which most modern Bibles mistranslate as “highly favored one” or even “highly favored daughter.” Yet those words are not in the original Greek. In the Greek, it is “Kecharitomenae” – literally, “Full of grace” or “Perfectly graced” implying an “overflowing” or “abundance” of grace.

Furthermore, the angel Gabriel uses this as a proper name for Mary; and we all know the significance of names in the Bible, right? Names define who and what the person is. For example, Jesus’ Name means: “Yahweh is Salvation.” And, indeed, that’s what Jesus was and is.

So, if Mary is “Full of grace,” how can this be if she was a sinner? One cannot be sinful and “full of grace” or “perfectly graced.” That’s a contradiction.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” 29 But when she saw him,] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for **you have found favor **with God. Luke 1:28-30

"Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the translation ‘full of grace,’ opting instead for the less theologically loaded praises ‘endowed with grace; dearly loved.’ The MNT task force translates it as ‘graciously favored by God,’ while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, ‘full of grace,’ is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators. The most recent standard Catholic translations the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, ‘O highly favored daughter’; JB, ‘So highly favored’) [Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? (New York: Calvary Press, 2001) p. 129].

aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2490

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception comes to us from the Syrian-speaking Church in the East – the branch of early Christianity which was closest in culture to the original, Jewish community of believers. >

FYI re IC: The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states,

“No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Christ had a human nature and a divine nature.
God made Mary sinless at conception,and Jesus inherited a sinless human nature from her. Christ is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve.

So you are saying that Jesus’ sinlessness depended upon Mary.

So Jesus is God and He is depending upon one of His creatures for His sinlessness??

.

 

[po18guy]

The Scriptures clearly tell us that Mary a human being was a sinner. The Scriptures do not tell us that Mary was sinless.

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What sin? Where? List them! Cast the first stone!

 

[emeraldisle]

Firstly, we (the modern minds) believe in genetic information or the transfer of information from our parents thru the genes these days. Here is the website :
stanford.edu/~wine/202/g-and-b.html

Secondly, since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus took His flesh alone from Mary, because He has no biological father.

Having said this two important facts, and analyzing it, we could say that the crucial genetic information (if not all) from Mary can be transfered to the flesh of Jesus.

Therefore, if Mary is a sinner, then the flesh of Jesus would also contain these genetic information of being sinful. If Jesus inherited this sinfulness from Mary, then He is also a slave of the devil, and it will lead him to eternal death.

On the contray, we all know that Jesus is sinless, spotless (both human and divine nature) and righteous. His body (whose flesh he receive from Mary) is also spotless, and must be sinless. Therefore, Mary is also spotless, sinless, full of humility and righteousness. That is why she is full of grace and the Lord God honored and blessed her above all of us.

So God is depending upon one of His creatures to make the Lord Jesus sinless??

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Scriptural evidence has already been presented, but you choose to ignore it: Genesis 3, 15; Gabriel’s greeting to Mary in the Annunciation; Luke’s comparison of Mary with the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant. The Church had already regarded the mother of our Lord sinless by the time Luke wrote his gospel. The parallel he draws between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant reflects this traditional belief. Sacred Tradition preceded the New Testament. Jesus founded a Church on his Apostles; He didn’t write and publish a Holy Book; nor did He commission his disciples to write the New Testament.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

The Scriptural evidence states that the Lord Jesus is sinless and that Mary along with all the rest of humanity that came from Adam are sinners.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Then Mary inherited her sinfulness from both of her parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, who inherited their sinfulness from both of their parents, and so on back to Adam and Eve; correct?

Yes Mary inherited her sinfulness from Adam & Eve.

.

 

[allhers]

:banghead:

 

[Thing]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

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Do people in heaven have a fallen human nature?

 

[po18guy]

So God is depending upon one of His creatures to make the Lord Jesus sinless??

First, you must take a look at how God has traditionally accomplished things. The Ark of the Covenant bore His Commandments. Once consecrated, it was not to be touched by man. The only recorded case of a man (Uzzah) touching it shows that he was struck dead. Seventy others who simply looked into it were struck dead. All this was to protect the Commandments of God.

God realized that His Son must suffer for our redemption. He could have created a perfect, sinless “Adam” type body for Jesus, but did not. He chose instead, to use the method that was documented in prophecy - the virgin. But, not just any virgin. One that was special, one with which He would take even greater care of than the man-made ark. This ark would carry the Word made flesh!

So, you can easily accept that to touch the Ark was death. To look into it was death. You can easily accept that Jesus had to be born of woman. If God so mightily protected the Ark which bore mere stone tablets, how much more would He do to protect the living, human Ark who carried His Perfect Son? So, do you really believe that God, Who had created sinless humans before, could not do it a third time? Especially if this body would provide blood and nurture to His Perfect, Sinless Son?

The alternative explanation, I guess, is that Jesus had either a halo of protection around Him in the womb, or that he was blessed with a Super umbilical cord which cleansed the impure blood before it reached His sinless body. But, since both Mary’s and Jesus’ bodies were 100% human, that would not have been the case. The argument sounds silly.

At the Annunciation, Mary was not frightened at the Angels appearance. Why not? The appearance of Angels was terrifying to those who encountered them. Ah, but if she was preserved from sin by God, there would be no such fear of the Spirit who came from God’s presence. She pondered only how she, a virgin, could conceive.

I have yet to hear a better explanation as to the unique in-all-the-world woman that our all-powerful God chose to bear His Eternal Son.