did Mary have fallen human nature?

[allhers]

Do you not understand what the following verse says about the Lord Jesus?

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

.

I’m glad you like what our first Pope said.
Now if you would learn from the rest of our teachings, you’d be good to go.

 

[allhers]

Sandusky, you didn’t read anything about our Apostolic Traditions or oral teaching either, did you?

 

[sandusky]

allhers:

Sandusky, you didn’t read anything about our Apostolic Traditions or oral teaching either, did you?

I know all about your church’s definition of oral teaching, and apostolic traditions, and its claim to be the sole determiner, and interpreter of such things; however, the claim was made "that early Christians, taught their Faith by the Apostles, wrote of a New Eve, Mary."

You haven’t substantiated that claim; nor, IMO, can you.

 

[allhers]

I know all about your church’s definition of oral teaching, and apostolic traditions, and its claim to be the sole determiner, and interpreter of such things; however, the claim was made "that early Christians, taught their Faith by the Apostles, wrote of a New Eve, Mary."

You haven’t substantiated that claim; nor, IMO, can you.

Then you don’t understand that oral tradition and Apostolic Tradition was handed down do you? Oral means to tell by mouth. First you tell one person, they in turn tell another and on and on, eventually someone starting writing things down, just like the New Testament, eventually people started writing that down too, at first though, in the early Church it was proclaimed by mouth before it was written down. Or did you also think, like so many others seem to, that the Bible was in the Apostles hands when they were preaching about Jesus? (it wasn’t though, as it wasn’t written down yet.)

 

[sandusky]

allhers:

Then you don’t understand that oral tradition and Apostolic Tradition was handed down do you? Oral means to tell by mouth. First you tell one person, they in turn tell another and on and on, eventually someone starting writing things down, just like the New Testament, eventually people started writing that down too, at first though, in the early Church it was proclaimed by mouth before it was written down. Or did you also think, like so many others seem to, that the Bible was in the Apostles hands when they were preaching about Jesus? (it wasn’t though, as it wasn’t written down yet.)

As I said, I know all about your church’s definition of oral teaching, and apostolic traditions, and its claim to be the sole determiner, and the sole interpreter of such things; however, the claim was made "that early Christians, taught their Faith by the Apostles, wrote of a New Eve, Mary."

Answer the claim. You haven’t substantiated that claim; nor, IMO, can you.

 

[VociMike]

Do you not understand what the following verse says about the Lord Jesus?

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

Yes, it says that “all have sinned” doesn’t really mean all have sinned. We’ve only been saying that for about 9000 posts.

 

[VociMike]

VociMike, I know you already know this, but for the sake of those who don’t know, this was the perfect place to put this, (if they would go back and read through this thread they would have to agree that this was already answered.)

Paul means that all people are subject to original sin. Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary’s sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words, God let all of us fall into the mud pudddle, and then washed us in baptism. For Mary, God did not let her fall into the mud puddle. But both scenarios are based on Christ’s redemption.

And whether referring to original sin or personal sin, Jesus, who is fully man, is the exception which demonstrates that “all” does not mean all.

Fourth, the word “all” in Rom 3:23 in Greek is pantes. It is the same word used in 1 Cor 15:22 where Paul says “all” have died. But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven.

Yes, more excellent scriptural evidence that “all” does not mean all.

 

[RobbyS]

All of the Bible is Gods Truth and in the Bible God tells us the Truth that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of sinful humanity.

Was Mary mentally handicapped?

I’m glad you didn’t say “we’re sinless here”

Yes tradition is wrong about Mary being sinless because God says she was part of sinful humanity.

I believe what God says in His written word and He says all of humanity is sinful and that includes Mary.

.

PAUL said that humanity is sinful, but in logic every general statement admits of exception. I stipulate that Paul did not know that Mary was sinless. Mankind, including Mary, needed salvation and could achieve it only through Christ. But the way she achieved it was different fromthe way other saints achieved it. Her relationship with him was radically different from theirs. IFJesus is truly God and truly man, then her relationship with Jesus is truly singular. If heaven is the presence of God, and only the pure can be in heaven, then surely Mary was pure while he was in her womb. Your low Chrisyology, or so it seems to me, would have me believe that Mary, like Eve, fell from grace. “Let it be done to me in accordance with your will,” she promised, When did she break that promise?

 

[sandusky]

RobbyS:

PAUL said that humanity is sinful, but in logic every general statement admits of exception.

I stipulate that Paul did not know that Mary was sinless.

Would you stipulate that any other of the apostles didn’t know that Mary was sinless, or only Paul? And if only Paul, why only Paul?

RobbyS:

Mankind, including Mary, needed salvation and could achieve it only through Christ. But the way she achieved it was different fromthe way other saints achieved it. Her relationship with him was radically different from theirs.

That proves nothing.

RobbyS:

IFJesus is truly God and truly man, then her relationship with Jesus is truly singular. If heaven is the presence of God, and only the pure can be in heaven, then surely Mary was pure while he was in her womb.

Scripture gives every indication that heaven is a place; furthermore, each believer is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, and within each believer is found the principle of evil and sin (Rom 7:21, 23); therefore, absolute purity seems not to be a requirement for the presence of God (neither were the apostles, nor anyone that God encountered while He “dwelt among us,” absolutely pure, and free of sin).

RobbyS:

Your low Chrisyology, or so it seems to me, would have me believe that Mary, like Eve, fell from grace. “Let it be done to me in accordance with your will,” she promised, When did she break that promise?

 

[Thing]

“…that early Christians, taught their Faith by the Apostles, wrote of a New Eve, Mary.”

St. Irenaeus (b. 2nd century; d. c 200) declared that Mary became “the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race,” because “what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” (Against Heresies, Book III, cap. 22, 4)

“…and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan.[3] Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from[4] the beginning; “watching unto prayer,”[5] and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God “not to lead us into temptation.” - St. Polycarp

Polycarp was converted to Christianity by Apostles, He is known as one of the Apostolic Fathers.
St. Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp.
Ergo; St. Irenaeus was taught by Apostles through this Apostolic Father.

“Stand fast, therefore, in this conduct and follow the example of the Lord, 'firm and unchangeable in faith, lovers of the brotherhood, loving each other, united in truth,’ helping each other with the mildness of the Lord, despising no man.” - St. Polycarp

St. Polycarp’s concern was preserving and handing on intact the doctrines of the Faith.

From the Catechsim of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches:

“You Did Not Abandon Him to the Power of Death”

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall. This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross,” makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve.” Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

St. John the Apostle of our Lord died at Ephesus, in the third year of Trajan, 100 AD, the same year St. Justin Martyr was born.
St Polycarp was a disciple of St. John the Apostle.

 

[allhers]

So, there you have it:
Jesus–>John–>Polycarp–>Irenaeus

(thank you thing)

 

[sandusky]

St. Irenaeus (b. 2nd century; d. c 200) declared that Mary became “the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race,” because “what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” (Against Heresies, Book III, cap. 22, 4)

“…and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan.[3] Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from[4] the beginning; “watching unto prayer,”[5] and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God “not to lead us into temptation.” - St. Polycarp

Polycarp was converted to Christianity by Apostles, He is known as one of the Apostolic Fathers.
St. Irenaeus was a disciple of St. Polycarp.
Ergo; St. Irenaeus was taught by Apostles through this Apostolic Father.

“Stand fast, therefore, in this conduct and follow the example of the Lord, 'firm and unchangeable in faith, lovers of the brotherhood, loving each other, united in truth,’ helping each other with the mildness of the Lord, despising no man.” - St. Polycarp

St. Polycarp’s concern was preserving and handing on intact the doctrines of the Faith.

From the Catechsim of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches:

“You Did Not Abandon Him to the Power of Death”

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall. This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium (“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross,” makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve.” Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

St. John the Apostle of our Lord died at Ephesus, in the third year of Trajan, 100 AD, the same year St. Justin Martyr was born.
St Polycarp was a disciple of St. John the Apostle.

Where in those writings do any of those writers attribute their opinions concerning Mary as the New Eve to this, or that specific apostle?

All I’m hearing are those writers voicing an opinion.

 

[planter654]

I would imagine not; that is why she was able to remain sinless unto death.

God Bless

I would think that is why Mary was to be called Blessed among all women. Mary was called virgin I believe because she was born with out original sin, that is what I was taught as a child. Blessed was to be her name Blessed among all women—she was named this by God. God’s promise that Mary would be known as this, do you think. There is not much mentioned about Blessed Mary’s daily live like “Little St. Theresa said”.

 

[mercygate]

So, there you have it:
Jesus–>John–>Polycarp–>Irenaeus

(thank you thing)

The timeline from the death of John until the writing of Irenaeus is only 95 years.

Just to illustrate the perspective here, when I was a child, my great-grandmother told me how, as a child of 7, she had been taken in the middle of the night to see the train carrying Abraham Lincoln’s coffin when it passed through Joliet, Ill. She said there were so many people you could hardly see anything but the smokestack on the train.

That was in 1865. I heard the story around 1951. I remember the story clearly – and as an adult, I confirmed that Lincoln’s train had passed through Joliet at midnight on its way to Springfield. So what I remembered my great-grandmother telling me accords with what actually happened. The time covered from 1865 to 1951 is 86 years. “Living memory,” especially of ‘memorable’ things, is very strong and much more reliable than we tend to give credit for.

 

[JoeyWarren]

All I’m hearing are those writers voicing an opinion.

And most of us are just hearing Sandusky voicing an opinion.

Pick one:

A. Trust the opinion of Sandusky.

B. Trust the opinion of the Early Church Fathers.

 

[allhers]

sandusky, do you even call her the Blessed Mother or the Blessed Virgin? If not, why not, what do you call her?

 

[planter654]

I agree 100%.

It also says Jesus was fully God & fully man.

That is why it is obvious that your interpretation of Scripture as saying that “all of humanity is sinful” is incorrect.

Otherwise, it would be saying that Jesus did sin, or that Jesus wasn’t really fully God & fully man.

God Bless,

Chris

Jesus came in the flesh, how else could we related to him? But I believe Jesus was born by the power of the Holy spirit, the power and glory of God! Jesus is divine, but we as mortals cannot fully understand the great mysteries of God! do ;you think Jesus came in the flesh of our sins–thereforth was not of sin in the Divine Holy spirit, but took on the flesh of our sins and paid and suffered the worst agony of death in the flesh and paid the debt of our sins. Thou fully Holy divine–but offered up this scarifice for us, because we are all blemished because of our sins. god accepted because Jesus did a righteous act and paid our debt doing it (justice) god accepted because Jesus was unblemish period. Does this make any sense.

It is like someone is going to kill you because of what you have done, but I say no —take me instead—Love, charity making it the perfect unblemish scarifice doing this in PURE LOVE for another! Compassion, mercy, forgiveness, not judging buy serving.

God Bless --crasy of me, but not that far off do you think?

 

[JoeyWarren]

sandusky, do you even call her the Blessed Mother or the Blessed Virgin? If not, why not, what do you call her?

He would not use either IMHO. He would at all call her Blessed, if he truely was a member of a generation that would call her Blessed. I would imagine he just believes her to be nothing but a petrie dish for God to use and then discarded. His belief in scripture is shallow to say the least, and is just on the surface to say the most.

 

[allhers]

So, there you have it:
Jesus–>John–>Polycarp–>Irenaeus

(thank you thing)

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
*(Under Mary is the New Eve…)
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II

 

[allhers]

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition.