did Mary have fallen human nature?

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allhers said:
2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition.👍
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I think no matter how early you can show a belief , such as “New Eve” – which so parallels the “new Adam” statement of Paul’s that it counts as Scriptural – your interlocutor will just re-set the bar. First “early” has to be before 325 a.d. Then it has to be before 250 a.d. Then it has to be from the Apostles AND in writing. No, no no! It has to be in Scripture. And even if you can demonstrate it from Scripture, and show corroboration by writings of the sub-apostolic age that testify to the practice and belief of the Church, THAT isn’t good enough because it has to be spelled out in detail or else it’s just “interpretation.” :yawn:
 
JoeyWarren said:
And most of us are just hearing Sandusky voicing an opinion.

Pick one:

A. Trust the opinion of Sandusky.

B. Trust the opinion of the Early Church Fathers.
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I’ll go with B and the Holy Bible

Psalm 132:8
Ezek: 44:2
🙂
 
mercygate said:
I think no matter how early you can show a belief , such as “New Eve” – which so parallels the “new Adam” statement of Paul’s that it counts as Scriptural – your interlocutor will just re-set the bar. First “early” has to be before 325 a.d. Then it has to be before 250 a.d. Then it has to be from the Apostles AND in writing. No, no no! It has to be in Scripture. And even if you can demonstrate it from Scripture, and show corroboration by writings of the sub-apostolic age that testify to the practice and belief of the Church, THAT isn’t good enough because it has to be spelled out in detail or else it’s just “interpretation.” :yawn:
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I know, it’s sad isn’t it? That’s why I’m so happy Jesus founded our Church and left us with such great minds to teach us, empowered by the Holy Spirit that He sent to His Apostles and His Blessed Mother on Pentacost.👍 I love the fact that we still pray with her.—I am allhers:thumbsup:
 
expectthebest said:
Another thing about this has occurred to me. It has nothing to do with Mary but about questioning the Church in general and maybe it should be a new thread but we are discussing it anyway sooooo,

Scripture indicates that in the end, there will be very few Faithful left. Is it possible that these few Faithful will be the ones who questioned the Church and said it was wrong on certain issues? Could these be the ones that are still truely the Faithful while the Church, as an institution goes off on a tangent? The devil is the ultimate deciever. Could the devil/anitchrist actually deceive people by rising within the Church masking the true Church from the false Church? See what I’m getting at here?

If we give up all ability to question our Faith because something has been infallibly decided, don’t we risk being deceived by the devil?

I often wonder why the complete revelation of Fatima is not revealed. It makes me wonder what the Church might be hiding in the relevation. Maybe it is more insidious then we think.
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they thought that always comes to my mind is what Jesus said: there will be no sign for this generation. The devil came as an angel to Jesus but Jesus knew he was Satan. Jesus said this generation will be giving no sign. I believe Jesus generation has not ended remember God said sit at my right hand till I make the earth your footstool. also God saying–not until all the gentles are in! Jesus mentions I think that do not believe for if even the elect will be tested but will know, they will not believe the sign seen. Am I off on this one—please let me know!— God Bless
 
JoeyWarren said:
And most of us are just hearing Sandusky voicing an opinion.

Pick one:

A. Trust the opinion of Sandusky.

B. Trust the opinion of the Early Church Fathers.
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Pick one:

A. Believe what God has said about Mary in His written word, that she was a sinner like all of us.

B. Believe what men say and that is that Mary was sinless.

A
 
Pick one:

A. Believe what God has said about Mary in His written word, that she was sinless.
B. Believe what men say and that is that Mary was sinless.

A
 
emeraldisle said:
Pick one:

A. Believe what God has said about Mary in His written word, that she was sinless ( kecharitomene and her being the ark of the new covenant )

B. Believe what modern men say and that is that Mary was a sinner due to an incorrect understanding of what “all have sinned” means

A
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A-men sista! I am with ya on dis one!👍 A
 
emeraldisle said:
Do you not understand what the following verse says about the Lord Jesus?

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22
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I certainly do - Christ didn’t sin.

Amen!

Do you not understand the Incarnation?

That Jesus is fully God (John 1:1) and fully man (John 1:13, Heb. 2:18,…)?

You claim that
** all of humanity is sinful and that includes Mary.**
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You apparently don’t understand that your claim ALSO must include Christ, unless you deny His incarnation.

Unfortunately, this denial throws the entire NT into disarray & internal conflict.

Regards,

Chris
 
planter654 said:
Jesus came in the flesh, how else could we related to him? But I believe Jesus was born by the power of the Holy spirit, the power and glory of God! Jesus is divine, but we as mortals cannot fully understand the great mysteries of God! do ;you think Jesus came in the flesh of our sins–thereforth was not of sin in the Divine Holy spirit, but took on the flesh of our sins and paid and suffered the worst agony of death in the flesh and paid the debt of our sins. Thou fully Holy divine–but offered up this scarifice for us, because we are all blemished because of our sins. god accepted because Jesus did a righteous act and paid our debt doing it (justice) god accepted because Jesus was unblemish period. Does this make any sense.

It is like someone is going to kill you because of what you have done, but I say no —take me instead—Love, charity making it the perfect unblemish scarifice doing this in PURE LOVE for another! Compassion, mercy, forgiveness, not judging buy serving.

God Bless --crasy of me, but not that far off do you think?
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Hi planter,

I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand your post, or how it relates to the issue of EI’s implicit denial of Christ’s incarnation.

Could you clarify?

Chris
 
emeraldisle said:
Tradition is telling us Mary was sinless but tradition is plain wrong according to what God says in His written word.

The Scriptures clearly tell us that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity. Scriptures do not tell us that Mary was sinless but they do tell us that Jesus was sinless.

.
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No scripture does not tell us that all of humanity is sinful. You are reading “All have Sinned” out of context.

We shall consult Dr Strong:

  1. *]individually

    1. *]each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
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    1. *]collectively

      1. *]some of all types
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      1. … “the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ?
        "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

        “Ye are of God,little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody?

        The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually.

        The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile
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        There is only one Greek word that means “All without Exception” and that word is Hapas and it is used very sparingly.

        studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3956
 
JoeyWarren said:
No scripture does not tell us that all of humanity is sinful. You are reading “All have Sinned” out of context.

We shall consult Dr Strong:

There is only one Greek word that means “All without Exception” and that word is Hapas and it is used very sparingly.

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3956
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Ahhhh. Dr. Strong. Fine Protestant gentleman. What would we do without him? I am sure he is up there with St. Jerome, chuckling over Holy Writ and how thin and shadowy it is compared with the One of Whom it speaks!
 
mercygate said:
Ahhhh. Dr. Strong. Fine Protestant gentleman. What would we do without him? I am sure he is up there with St. Jerome, chuckling over Holy Writ and how thin and shadowy it is compared with the One of Whom it speaks!
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Naw, me be thinking he could still being purifed…😃 and wondering how he never saw that concept in da Holy Writ…
 
expectthebest said:
It also doesn’t make and direct statements that she did not. Since all men are sinners, Mary must be singled out as not having sin. This did not happen. Therefore, the best one could do logically is say they don’t know. But an infallible statement of truth? That’s a tough one.
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The bible can not say all men have committed personal sin either as it offers up an exception. Or do you claim that it contradicts itself? Or that Christ was not a man?

And you are correct the best you can say is that scripture is expliciptly silent on the subject.

Therefore those locked into the self-refuting doctrine that only that which is found clearly stated in scripture can be known should probably profess ignorance on the subject.

Instead some continue to insist that she was sinful and that the bible clearly says so.

Chuck
 
expectthebest said:
It also doesn’t make and direct statements that she did not. Since all men are sinners, Mary must be singled out as not having sin. This did not happen. Therefore, the best one could do logically is say they don’t know. But an infallible statement of truth? That’s a tough one.
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It’s only “tough” if you approach the bible with the notion “I’m going to decipher these words and use my human intellect (note how you used the word ‘logically’) to figure out what God meant.” But that’s not what the bible is for. The bible is not a catechism. If God truly intended for it to be a catechism, don’t you think he could have caused it to be more clear? As it is, people find all kinds of false beliefs in the bible. Every single heresy supported itself by quoting the bible. Was God really that incompetent when he brought about the writing of scripture? You and I both know that he wasn’t. So the problem must be that people are using the bible for the wrong purpose, and as a result getting the wrong information back.

Here’s a useful question to ask. Which will produce a clearer answer to a question on God’s revelation? To ask what the Church teaches about that issue, or to ask what the bible teaches about that issue?

Which is clearer on baptism?
Which is clearer on the Eucharist?
Which is clearer on the Trinity?
Which is clearer on the divinity of Christ?
etc, etc, etc
 
All or many…all or many…all or many

He died for all
He gave his life for many

15 And Christ died for all;

28 …and to give his life a redemption for many.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many
 
VociMike said:
It’s only “tough” if you approach the bible with the notion “I’m going to decipher these words and use my human intellect (note how you used the word ‘logically’) to figure out what God meant.” But that’s not what the bible is for. The bible is not a catechism. If God truly intended for it to be a catechism, don’t you think he could have caused it to be more clear? As it is, people find all kinds of false beliefs in the bible. Every single heresy supported itself by quoting the bible. Was God really that incompetent when he brought about the writing of scripture? You and I both know that he wasn’t. So the problem must be that people are using the bible for the wrong purpose, and as a result getting the wrong information back.

Here’s a useful question to ask. Which will produce a clearer answer to a question on God’s revelation? To ask what the Church teaches about that issue, or to ask what the bible teaches about that issue?

Which is clearer on baptism?
Which is clearer on the Eucharist?
Which is clearer on the Trinity?
Which is clearer on the divinity of Christ?
etc, etc, etc
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The Bible teaches many things, but most important it is the instrucment, tool God has given us when we have no place to go, no one to listen, when we are in our hour of darkness, or in our moment of joy etc— our personal time with God! god’s words to meditate upon in silence.

I also believe when I read the bible like if something at the time is troubling me, it gives me comfort, hope, understanding how to look at my own situation! The bible is almost like God is right there in the moment and talks to me, answers me, makes me look at my situation in a different light, thought, through God’s word.

To me the Bible tells me God has thought of everything! God has given us everything we need when we need it!

I truly believe it is “not important” for us to know or “try to figure out if Mary had a fallen human nature”? These questions are not what is important as much has what God wants me to do in my life. What am I going to do with this precious gift God has given. How and what do I do to do all that is pleasing to God!

God is not a God of confusion. god did not send Jesus to figure out about what day or time he rose, but that Jesus rose from the dead.

God Bless
 
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