did Mary have fallen human nature?

[clmowry]

“all” is set in the context of sin and death. Now all humans die, unless as in the case of Enoch and Elijah God takes them without dying and we know this because it’s revealed in Gods written word.

Now just as all humans die so they all have sin, which is why they die. Now I know people say what about Jesus didn’t He die and He was sinless, well again the answer is in Gods written word. Jesus laid down His life, remember He is God.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

.

Just because only Enoch and Elijah are said explicitly in scripture to have been taken up to, heaven without dying does not mean you can conclude that no on else has ever been taken up to heaven without dying.

It could have happened, we do not know if God has chosen to offer this special privilege to others (or not.)

This is simply faulty logic.

In the same way, you cannot conclude that because only Christ is said explicitly to be sinless in scripture that therefore every other individual must be guilty of personal sin.

The exception does not prove the rule.

It simply proves that there are exceptions to the rule and that therefore “all” does not “always” mean each and every individual who has ever lived.

Chuck

 

[expectthebest]

Just because only Enoch and Elijah are said explicitly in scripture to have been taken up to, heaven without dying does not mean you can conclude that no on else has ever been taken up to heaven without dying.

It could have happened, we do not know if God has chosen to offer this special privilege to others (or not.)

This is simply faulty logic.

In the same way, you cannot conclude that because only Christ is said explicitly to be sinless in scripture that therefore every other individual must be guilty of personal sin.

The exception does not prove the rule.

It simply proves that there are exceptions to the rule and that therefore “all” does not “always” mean each and every individual who has ever lived.

Chuck

Chuck, you are correct. I think what is being argued is one who doens’t believe in the Churches infallibility on these things would also state that the Bible doesn’t explicitly say it either. Therefore, without belief in the infallibility of the Church, there is no way to prove or disprove from the Scripture alone.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

The Catholic Church also doesn’t teach sola scripture (because it’s not in the Bible) which leads to having both the Bible and Sacred Tradition to guide one’s way along doctrines and interpretation of the Bible.

“And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:19-21

I can tell you that the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in the Protestant church on interpretation, because I’m sure the Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict itself doctrinally.

So, to correct you, it would be;

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was assumed into Heaven (Tradition).

:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[adam_in_ohio]

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

.

Where does it say only?

 

[adam_in_ohio]

I also find it intriguing that the Roman Empire fell in 476 and there were 7 years of persecution following and immediately after that Jesus ruled with an Iron rod thru the Instrumentality of his Holy Roman Church for 1000 years and Satan was let loose for a time at the end of 1007 years in the year 1483 Martin Luther was born and in my opinion fully possessed by Satan. This can be gleamed from the irrefutable fact that Martin Luther heard voices that tormented him for most of his life. God does not torment man, only Satan and his demons do.

EmeraldIsle, Not one single Christian prior to Satan manifesting himself in Martin Luther believed an iota of what you believe today.

Take it for what it is worth.

:dts: On what grounds would you believe such a thing?

 

[adam_in_ohio]

“And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!’” Lk 1:28
In some Bibles it will say Gabriel said “Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favior”. In the greek the “*chaire kecharitomene” *.
Luke gives this greeting with an alliterative play on words. The basic root charis or ‘grace’ is present in both words luke uses (Rejoice and you who enjoy Gods favour). The words Luke uses chaire and kecharitomene are essentially interconected. Because God loves her and has filled Mary with grace in view of her divine motherhood, God invites her to rejoice.
“This fullness of grace indicates a condition or state of being, a gift signfying divine faviour. It implies a divine choice or election in relation to the Covenant. The Expressions ‘Full of grace’ and ‘you who enjoy God’s favior’ are renderings of the Greek word kecharitomene which is a passive participle. The verb utlized here by Luke (charitoun) is very rare in Greek. It is present only twice in the NT: in the text of Luke 1:28 ‘kecharitomene’ and in the epistle to the Ephesians (ep 1:6) echaritosen. These verbs convey the idea of a change of something in the person or the thing affected. Thus, since the root of the verb ‘charitoo’ is ‘charis’ or grace, the idea which is expressed is that of a change brought about by grace. In addition the verb used by Luke is in the past participle form. ‘Kecharitomene’ signifies then, in the person to whom the verb relates, that is Mary, that the action of the grace of God has already brought about a change. It does not tell us how that came about. What is essential here is the affirmation that Mary has been transformed by the grace of God. The perfect passive participle is used by Luke to indicate that the transformation by grace has alresdy taken place in Mary, well before the moment of the Annunciation” -The Mystery of Mary by Paul Haffner pg. 56-57

 

[emeraldisle]

What happens to those babies that get aborted. Since all have sinned, they must go straight to Hell.

You are getting the sin nature mixed up with the practice of sin. The aborted baby had a sin nature but it’s obvious the baby didn’t practice sin. Also God is Just; He will punish those who sin knowingly.

What happens to the Mentally Disabled. They never sinned at all because they are not capable of sinning or do they just sin because of their existence?

They do sin but they sin in ignorance.

Children do not sin until they reach some undetermined age of accountability and reason that is unique to the individual.

Children do not sin ???

Only Hapas means “All without exception” and it is used very rarely in scripture and for good reason.

The Bible teaches us that there was one exception re the all have sinned, the Lord Jesus is the exception.

My Motto: If it aint the Greek, It aint the Bible.

What about the Hebrew Scriptures?

.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

What about the Hebrew Scriptures?

.

Didn’t Jesus quote from the Greek?

 

[clmowry]

Chuck, you are correct. I think what is being argued is one who doens’t believe in the Churches infallibility on these things would also state that the Bible doesn’t explicitly say it either. Therefore, without belief in the infallibility of the Church, there is no way to prove or disprove from the Scripture alone.

Yep.

Just like scripture does not say anyting explicitly about everything needing to be proven from scripture alone.

But somehow that doesn’t stop folks who insist on claiming everything must be proven from scripture alone from claiming everyting must be proven from scripture alone.

:whacky:

Chuck

 

[emeraldisle]

Just because only Enoch and Elijah are said explicitly in scripture to have been taken up to, heaven without dying does not mean you can conclude that no on else has ever been taken up to heaven without dying.

It could have happened, we do not know if God has chosen to offer this special privilege to others (or not.)

This is simply faulty logic.

Imo you are missing the point, the point isn’t that God couldn’t take up other people to heaven without them dying. The point is that these sinners didn’t die because God took them up to heaven, in other words they would have died if God didn’t take them up to heaven.

In the same way, you cannot conclude that because only Christ is said explicitly to be sinless in scripture that therefore every other individual must be guilty of personal sin.

 

[emeraldisle]

Where does it say only?

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

So, to correct you, it would be;

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was assumed into Heaven (Tradition).

and the Catholic Church tradition teachings re Marys sinlessness clearly contradict what God teaches us in His written word that Mary was a sinner.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Rom 5:12

.

 

[mercygate]

and the Catholic Church tradition teachings re Marys sinlessness clearly contradict what God teaches us in His written word that Mary was a sinner.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Rom 5:12

.

It has already been demonstrated that the word “all” in this passage means “almost everybody” and not “all persons without exception.”

You need to get another string for your fiddle.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

:dts: On what grounds would you believe such a thing?

Personal Speculation of Course

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.
.

The True Bottom Line is that God has revealed in his Written Word that at a minimum Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

You still have not answered the question. How can a retarded person sin? How does a worst case Down Syndrome child sin?

 

[emeraldisle]

It has already been demonstrated that the word “all” in this passage means “almost everybody” and not “all persons without exception.”

All mankind dies, all have sinned and don’t restate the old argument about Enoch, Elijah & the Lord Jesus.

The only exception in the all have sinned is the Lord Jesus and we know this because God tells us so in His written word.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

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[Peter_Da_Rock]

All mankind dies, all have sinned and don’t restate the old argument about Enoch, Elijah & the Lord Jesus.

The only exception in the all have sinned is the Lord Jesus and we know this because God tells us so in His written word.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22
.

That says he did not sin. It does not say he is the ONLY one who did not sin.

 

[emeraldisle]

You still have not answered the question. How can a retarded person sin? How does a worst case Down Syndrome child sin?

You are avoiding the issue of this tread, “did Mary have fallen human nature?”

Was Mary a retarded person, was she a worst case Downs Syndrome child?

Was Mary human??

.

 

[mercygate]

That says he did not sin. It does not say he is the ONLY one who did not sin.

Ah! I get it! Emerald says that because scripture says this ONLY of Jesus, therefore it applies ONLY to Jesus. Notwithstanding the Greek.

Moreover Scripture says that Job – “blameless and upright” “did not sin.”

 

[emeraldisle]

That says he did not sin. It does not say he is the ONLY one who did not sin.

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

If you don’t believe this then prove it to me that the Lord Jesus wasn’t the only person who was completely and always sinless.

.