Did Mary make an offering for sin?

[pjkramer]

Today a co-worker of mine put forth an objection to the Immaculate Conception that I had never heard before. It goes something like this:

In Luke 2:24, Mary and Joseph offer two turtledoves as an offering at the temple. This was prescribed in Leviticus 12 which says one of the doves is for a sin offering. Mary’s presentation of this offering implies that she was sinful, for why would you make a sin offering if you are sinless?

Any ideas on how to answer this objection?

Thanks!

 

[puzzleannie]

there is (are) already a couple of threads that give very good answers to this, basically Mary and Joseph obeyed the law in all things, as this action demonstrates, and also the understanding of “sin offering” as implying that Mary (or any new mother) had somehow sinned in conceiving and giving birth is flawed and does not reflect Jewish teaching or understanding. Both concepts are dealt with at length by more qualified people on the previous threads. also see the CA tracts on Mary.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

By that logic try this:

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sin

Jesus was baptised

Therefore, Jesus must have been sinful

Doesn’t quite add up does it?

Scott

 

[Bleevrz3_16]

Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.

 

[MonicaC]

Bleevrz3:16:

Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.

I am sorry but you are very wrong about this Mary did not sin, she is the only being besides God that was born without original sin. Why would God be present in a body that had sin. God planned this from the beganing.

 

[JimG]

As I understand it, the offering required of new mothers under the old Law was not for personal sin but for ritual impurity which was incurred by the mere fact of giving birth. There were many action causing ritual impurity which did not involve sin, but did require ritual purification.

 

[joehar]

JimG:

As I understand it, the offering required of new mothers under the old Law was not for personal sin but for ritual impurity which was incurred by the mere fact of giving birth. There were many action causing ritual impurity which did not involve sin, but did require ritual purification.

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

 

[Mickey]

joehar:

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

So then you say that God was present in the womb of a sinful woman?

BTW–I think we’ve all had enough of your pope bashing.

 

[mercygate]

Did she make an offering for sin? Interesting question. I do know that she gave her only begotten son. Does that count?

 

[mercygate]

joehar:

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

joehar, *where *do you get this stuff? Ya gotta stop getting your theology from Jack Chick.

Who is “all?” Has an infant sinned? Do the mentally defective, who have no use of moral judgment, sin?

Get a grip!

 

[JimG]

The book Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews : A Jewish Life and the Emergence of Christianity, by Paula Fredriksen, has an excellent discussion of first century Judaism, including the many laws of ritual impurity and ritual purification, most of which had nothing to do with personal sin. It’s not a book specifically for believers. In fact I couldn’t tell, reading it, whether she is a believer of any sort or not, but I assume not. But it’s a good resource for learning about the Jewish background of Christianity.

As for “all have sinned,” if all means all, it would have to include Jesus, since he was also fully human, as well as all children and infants. And if infants have sinned, what happens to the argument against infant baptism?

 

[Strider]

joehar:

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

Paul was quoting Psalm 14 when he wrote “All have sinned,”
Read it…all of it. Mary did not sin.
This is why you need the Magesterium to help you interpret Scripture, joehar.

 

[Pug]

joehar:

oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Cut from Acts 15:7

Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

I added the red. I do know that most everywhere there is the stuff about Paul entrusted to go to the Gentiles, but it is best not to forget this verse (and the dream about the sheet).

 

[Robert_in_SD]

joehar:

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

Dear Joehar;

According to St. Luke, Mary is “full of grace” and “highly favored.” Lk 1:37. “For with God nothing is impossible.” Mary is the “woman” of Gen. 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and sin is absolute. She is the “ark of the covenant” (Ex. 25:11-21) made not of the purest gold but of the purest flesh to hold the living Word of God.

Catholics rightly understand that In Romans 3:23 St. Paul is emphasizing the universal aspect of sin extending to Jews and Gentiles alike. There are exceptions that fall outside of Paul’s condemnation, like Jesus, babies, Adam and Eve before the fall, and Mary, the mother of God.

Catholics believe that Mary was saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, just as we all are. However, she was simply saved in a different way. We are freed from original sin at our baptism. Mary was preserved from original sin at her conception by a singular act of God - not for the exhaltation of Mary, but because it pleased God to do so - so that His Son would be born of the purest flesh. Mary did not earn her own salvation. She obtained it through Christ, but in a unique way. And because she was free from the corruption of original sin, she was simply never inclined commit sin, as evidenced by Scriptural references to her obedience to God’s will at the crucifiction of her Son at Calvary - where Jesus Christ made her the mother of all in His Church.

When will you *silly protestants * learn to give Mary the honor and respect that she is owed for her sacrifice and obedience to God. Maybe you’re simply arguing the fact of Mary’s sinless nature just to be contrary to what “that ole’ Pope says.” Call me old-fashioned, but the last thing in the world I’d want to do is call my Savior’s mother a dirty sinner. Seems darn “impolite” to say the least.

Regards,

 

[MaggieOH]

Bleevrz3:16:

Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.

This is a case of taking a verse out of the Scripture and applying it in a sense that was not meant by the author. You have to look at the context of the verse to determine whether or not it applies to every single human being.

The context suggests no such thing about Mary. St. Paul was addressing an audience of both Jews and Gentiles who had converted to Christianity and he was addressing a particular value judgement attitude. He was not stating that everyone, past present and future had sinned. That is giving this verse a meaning that is not supported by the context.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

JimG:

As I understand it, the offering required of new mothers under the old Law was not for personal sin but for ritual impurity which was incurred by the mere fact of giving birth. There were many action causing ritual impurity which did not involve sin, but did require ritual purification.

This is the correct understanding of the sin offering. Under the Jewish Law there was a ritual offering that had to be made at a certain time after the birth of a son. Mary was making the ritual offering according to the Jewish Law. If she did not make the offering then you could correctly say that she had sinned because she would have disobeyed one of the Jewish precepts.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

joehar:

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

1. Mary did not sin. Please read Gen 3:14-15. God promised Salvation. He said that there would be the Woman, and the Seed of the Woman. In the case of the Woman, God also said that the Woman would be an enemy of Satan. Jesus identified Mary as the Woman in John chapter 2 at Cana. To be the enemy of Satan means that Mary was given special favours and graces by God so that she would desire God alone. It is there in Scripture: “Hail, Full of Grace”. (Lk 1:29)
2. Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. She was not discarded by God. She had a mother’s role in bringing up her Son before the beginning of His public life, and she was there when His life was ended on the Cross.
3. Did the Pope tell me these things? NO. I read it in the Scripture all by myself. I did not follow that fallible commentator by the name of Svendsen, or the other one by the name of White, or that one known as Dave Hunt. I read it there and I believed what I was reading.

Maggie

 

[SusanG]

Here’s the thing guys and gals…our pal Joehar only knows how to throw out a couple of ‘proof-texts’ that he hasn’t even learned from his own study. He has read someone’s guide for preaching to Catholics and took it as gospel truth. This is why he **never **responds when the truth is shown to him…it confuses him. I feel sorry for the little guy really. He has great enthusiasm, just batting for the wrong team is all.

Blessings to you all

 

[joehar]

SusanG:

Here’s the thing guys and gals…our pal Joehar only knows how to throw out a couple of ‘proof-texts’ that he hasn’t even learned from his own study. He has read someone’s guide for preaching to Catholics and took it as gospel truth. This is why he **never **responds when the truth is shown to him…it confuses him. I feel sorry for the little guy really. He has great enthusiasm, just batting for the wrong team is all.

Blessings to you all

Give me scriptures out of the bible, i dont just take anyones word I have watched etwn and shook my head. If i took this persons word as Gospel truth you better believe i checked it out in scriptures (KJV). its called being a berean

Gen 3:14-15 was talking about EVE WHEN THE SERPENT DECEIVED HER IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. WHERE DID YOU PEOPLE GET THIS FROM

 

[joehar]

Mickey:

So then you say that God was present in the womb of a sinful woman?

BTW–I think we’ve all had enough of your pope bashing.

yes, she was a virgin .