Did Mary make an offering for sin?

[Mannyfit75]

I know there are few scripture reference on Mary. All I see is that she was obedient to God’s Word, and never abandoned her son. She was there even at the foot of the cross. My Mommy (spiritual) sure has a strong faith in God…

 

[guanophore]

Today a co-worker of mine put forth an objection to the Immaculate Conception that I had never heard before. It goes something like this:

In Luke 2:24, Mary and Joseph offer two turtledoves as an offering at the temple. This was prescribed in Leviticus 12 which says one of the doves is for a sin offering. Mary’s presentation of this offering implies that she was sinful, for why would you make a sin offering if you are sinless?

Any ideas on how to answer this objection?

Thanks!

For the same reason we still make offerings (reparation) today for the sins of others. Some people won’t make their own sin offerings, and their sins cry out for justice.

 

[guanophore]

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

What do you think happened in the house of Cornelius, joehar? Do you imagine that he was not a Gentile?

You are taking the verse out of context that says “all have sinned”. You need to check back with the OT to see the passage Paul is quoting. He is talking about people that don’t believe in God. There were many righteous Jews, the parents of John the Baptist among them.

Luke 1:6
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can you be righteous and blameless before God if you are in sin?

Jesus Himself testifies that there are righteous people that do not need to be called to repentance:

Mark 2:17
17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 23:50
He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,

Matt 27:51-52
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

How did these people get to be saints before the HS was poured out?

 

[Church_Militant]

Did Mary make a sin offering? Yeah, so?

Jesus was baptized? Did He need to repent of some sins?

What did Our Lord tell John the Baptist? “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” The context is Matthew 3:14-17.

So then we see that even those without need still make an effort to fulfill all righteousness.

Mary’s “Kecharitomene” means that Our Lord applied the grace of His sacrifice to Mary in a unique way.

 

[jcrichton]

Today a co-worker of mine put forth an objection to the Immaculate Conception that I had never heard before. It goes something like this:

In Luke 2:24, Mary and Joseph offer two turtledoves as an offering at the temple. This was prescribed in Leviticus 12 which says one of the doves is for a sin offering. Mary’s presentation of this offering implies that she was sinful, for why would you make a sin offering if you are sinless?

Any ideas on how to answer this objection?

Thanks!

***Hi, pjkramer!

…ask your co-worker what did Jesus do when it came to complying with the Law… did He obey the Law or taught His disciples to ignore it? (Matthew 3: 13-17; 17:24-27)

Maran atha!

Angel

---

 

[jcrichton]

Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards

***Hi, joehar!

So you want me to follow your steps to:

Bereans
or Beroeans (both: br´nz) (KEY) , members of a Protestant religious sect founded in Scotland by John Barclay c.1773. They took their name from the community mentioned in Acts 17.10–13. They held the main Calvinist doctrines and placed great emphasis on the study of the Scriptures. The sect is extinct.

Please, read the replies–simply sticking to a belief because berean says will not help you get closer to God.

A sinner cannot at the same time be full of Grace!

God is not limited by the Holy Scriptures. If it were so, then Enoch would not have been taken, bodily, into Heaven; ditto with Elijah!

Elizabeth proclaims Mary the Mother of her Lord, yet you insist that God could not have kept Mary without sin–is beroean more powerful than God.

Elizabeth spoke inspired by the Holy Spirit–who inspires you?

As for your heavy Scriptural studies… you are allowing loyalty to a splinter group from a splinter group to blind you:

Acts 10:44-48
New International Version
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Ignoring passages that speak against personal or denominational belief does not endow your opinion with truth.

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Today a co-worker of mine put forth an objection to the Immaculate Conception that I had never heard before. It goes something like this:

In Luke 2:24, Mary and Joseph offer two turtledoves as an offering at the temple. This was prescribed in Leviticus 12 which says one of the doves is for a sin offering. Mary’s presentation of this offering implies that she was sinful, for why would you make a sin offering if you are sinless?

Any ideas on how to answer this objection?

Thanks!

Three points:​

1. Jesus complied with the law of circumcision - so it is entirely appropriate that she too be subject to the requirements of the Law.
2. She would have been ceremonially unclean - for purity is not a purely moral category. It is possible to be ceremonially unclean, without being ethically unclean. So unless there was no afterbirth, no menstrual fluid, & nothing else of the usual gynaecological detail that any mother giving birth experiences,the Torah would apply to her no less than to any other observant Jew.
3. Sin can be an ethical failing - it can also be a cultic failing, even when it is not ethical. Sin in the OT world was anything that disturbed the way things ought to be between men & gods, any lack of completeness in the way things should be. Which is why offerings & priests had to be physically perfect - it’s why lack of bodily integrity in a Levite meant he could not be a priest. Conversely, holiness was not necessarily a moral category - cultic prostitutes were holy, because they were set apart, dedicated to the service of a deity. In the NT, Christians are saints, “holy ones” despite their sins, in this latter sense; the Saints, are holy ethically as well.

 

[Bible_Believer]

Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.

AMEN!! That is absolutely what Romans 3:23 says!!
btw…I like your online name!

 

[Bible_Believer]

So then you say that God was present in the womb of a sinful woman?

BTW–I think we’ve all had enough of your pope bashing.

Mickey…
why do you say he is pope bashing??? Just because he disagrees with you??

 

[Bible_Believer]

Hello dave,

All I really have to say to you is that I feel really sorry for you. As St. Teresa once said “I say woe to all those who try to lead others astray.” If you don’t know what you are talking about then why do you speak. The majority of the people on this board is here to learn, so please take your hatefulness elsewhere.

Actually, everything Dave said is true. And the Bible itself speaks very specifically about teaching doctrine that is NOT in the Bible. Why is what Dave said hatefulness? I see him as presenting what he believes…just as you have.

 

[Bible_Believer]

Here’s the thing guys and gals…our pal Joehar only knows how to throw out a couple of ‘proof-texts’ that he hasn’t even learned from his own study. He has read someone’s guide for preaching to Catholics and took it as gospel truth. This is why he **never **responds when the truth is shown to him…it confuses him. I feel sorry for the little guy really. He has great enthusiasm, just batting for the wrong team is all.
The little guy?? Such name calling…Ive sat and read thru this thread and Ive got to say folks…that is isnt the friendliest. Let’s see…Ive seen the term “silly protestants” and other fairly snide comments. Then Ive read where most are hear to learn?? Well then…call me names too…Im sure you will, but if folks are hear to learn…arent they entitled to believe what they want just as you guys are?? Ive not once made comments like YOU CATHOLICS…I DO have respect for you to believe as you chose. Do I agree with your doctrines…no, I dont, and I dont expect you to agree with mine…but I think we can learn to communicate in a more Christ like manner with one another. My best friend of 30 years is Catholic, and a very devout one. I know Ive shared that in here, and we have never gotten ugly in our MANY discussions of our respected faiths.

Blessings to you all

 

[Bible_Believer]

Give me scriptures out of the bible, i dont just take anyones word I have watched etwn and shook my head. If i took this persons word as Gospel truth you better believe i checked it out in scriptures (KJV). its called being a berean

Gen 3:14-15 was talking about EVE WHEN THE SERPENT DECEIVED HER IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. WHERE DID YOU PEOPLE GET THIS FROM

Joehar, You are absolutely right !! I admire and stand by you in your stand for God’s word.

 

[Cling2Cross]

By that logic try this:

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sin

Jesus was baptised

Therefore, Jesus must have been sinful

Doesn’t quite add up does it?

Scott

It is explained in scripture that this would be the means by which John the Baptist would know who the Messiah was…

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Matthew 3:14-16 KJV)

3:15 it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Cor. 5:21). This act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. This first public event of His ministry is also rich in meaning: 1) it pictured His death and resurrection (cf. Luke 12:50); 2) it therefore prefigured the significance of Christian baptism (see note on v. 6); 3) it marked His first public identification with those whose sins he would bear (Is. 53:11; 1 Pet. 3:18); and 4) it was a public affirmation of His messiahship by testimony directly from heaven (see note on v. 17).
MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Mt 3:15

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. (John 1:29-34 KJV)

You cannot use this my friend.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mary and Jesus were not subject to sin. The sin offering was made because it was prescribe under Mosaic Law. Much like Jesus being baptized by John. Mary did not sin period. The sin offering was prescribe to all Jewish woman who gave birth to their first born child. This was customery and required for all Jewish women.

 

[PC_Master]

So then you say that God was present in the womb of a sinful woman?

This is quite simple.

You’re starting with the basis that God (Jesus) being present in the womb of a sinful woman is bad/impossible. Why? Is it that he cannot have been exposed to sin? He was exposed to sin in the world, was he not?

The other explanation I’ve heard is that a perfect being (Jesus) couldn’t be brought forth from a sinful being (Mary). Were this the case, however, then how’d we get Mary? Was Mary’s mother sinless as well, or was Mary, a supposedly perfect being, able to be brought forth from a sinful being?

If Jesus, who is God incarnate, creator of the entire universe, can’t come forth from a sinful being (Mary), then how can Mary (a mere mortal) have done it?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The reason there is a difference between the two is because Mary is human and Jesus is divine.

Original sin is the privation of sancitifying grace.

At the moment of Mary’s conception she was given sanctifying grace that no one had had since Adam and Eve.

As in baseball a tie goes to the runner.

In other words since she was given sanctifying grace at the exact moment of conception everything that original sin could do that was bad against Mary was cancelled out by sanctifying grace.

The reason it is different with Jesus is that He is not a mere human in need of sancitfying grace.

He is a divine person who chose to be in need of humanity.

He could not assume a depraved sin infested post fall total depravity affected humanity that He would have had to assume into his Divine Person if Mary had original sin.

He could however assume pre-fall humanity that had sanctifying grace and that was not inclined towards sin such as Adam and Eve had before the Fall.

If Jesus does not incorporate Mary’s humanity into His humanity then He is not truely man and cannot save us.

If Mary had original sin then her humanity by definition would be flawed and inclined towards sin and perfect God Jesus cannot unit with that that is inclined towards sin.

Can Jesus be in the world amongst sinners? Of course!

But can He be united with their inclined to sin humanity which would be the case if Mary had originaL SIN?

No!!!

The Immaculate Conception isn’t about who Mary is–it’s about who Jesus Christ is!

Truely God–Truely Man–but not inclined to sin after Adam and Eve had sinned in His humanity–but like Adam and Eve possesing sanctifying grace and Not inclined to sin before the fall!

That is why Jesus is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve.

The old Adam and the Old Eve had fallen.

The New Adam came from the New Eve to save us from being fallen like the Old Adam and the Old Eve!

Merry Christ Mass and Happy Birthday to the New Adam born to the New Eve!

 

[PC_Master]

Wait a second. Mary can be given sanctifying grace at the moment of her conception, despite the sinfulness of her parents, and yet be human in every other way, but Jesus, the creator of the universe made flesh, can’t be given sanctifying grace in spite of Mary’s sinfulness, and yet remain human in every other way?

Why? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

(This, of course, assumes I believe in original sin, which I find to be a pointless bit of theology – but that’s another issue altogether.)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

That’s right–Jesus can’t be given sanctifying grace because He already has it!

If he fused his divine person with a hypothetical Marian sinful humanity He would be reduced!~

There’s a difference between a human creature without sancifying grace being given sancitfying grace and a Divine Person who already has sancitfying grace assuming Orignal sin deprave humanity into their person!

Sancitfying grace would help Mary because there would be no original sin that had already Taken Root and inclined her to sin.

The same would not be the casse with Jesus because if Mary wpi;d had original sin then it would have already Taken Root and Jesus would have united His Divine person with sin!

The reason it works with Mary is because sin had not taken root.

The reason if can’t work with Jesus in the same way is if Mary have had original sin --Son sin WOULD HAVE TAKEN ROOT!

Sancifying grace can make Mary perfect because there is a blank slate to styart with.

Sanctifying grace CANNOT make perfect what original sin ALREADY IS!

The only way it works is if Mary is Immaculately Conceived and Jesus is born of a perfect not inclined to sin Mary!

You can make a blank slate perfect with Mary.

You can’t make a depraved Mary slate perfect for Jesus!

In other words you can’t take out the humanity of Mary once it has been depraved!

You can keep it from being depraved in the first place.

Once humanity is created it cannot be reversed!

That is why Mary must be immaculately conceived and also why Jesus must be born of a perfect Mary!

If Jesus was already a man like Mary already was a woman then He could be Immaculately Conceived just like Mary and avoid original sin!

But Jesus wasn’t already a man–He was Divine God!

Already being Divine God He could only become man not by an Immaculate Conception like Mary where sanctifying grace was added to a blank slate–He had to assume the humanity of His mother!

Jesus couldn’t come from a blank slate like Mary did!

That’s why Mary is the Mother of God and not the womb bearer of God!

Anyone who denies the Immaculate conception of mary by definition causes Jesus to unite with sin!

Only satan pushes that view!

People who do not understand this are guilty of not knowing who Jesus Christ really is!

The Catholic Church led into all truth by the Holy Spirit has Defined it!

It’s truth is not defined by whether PC Master or anyone else Chooses to acknowledge it!

“He who has ears to hear–let him hear”!

 

[PC_Master]

Let me see if I get this right…

Before Mary was born, the genetic material from her mother and father came together, causing her conception. At this point, sin had not taken hold in her, despite that under normal circumstances, original sin should have passed a sinful nature on to Mary. So, there was a divine intervention that allowed all of humanity except original sin pass to her, while blocking that original sin. Thus, she was born human, but without original sin. Is that correct, according to your view?

If so, then it holds that if Mary were not sinless, when Jesus was conceived, genetic material from Mary (I’m guessing here) combined with however God chose to constitute the makeup of Jesus’ DNA, causing his conception. At this point, sin had not taken hold in him either (same as with the claims about Mary), but yet God could not intervene, preventing original sin from passing to Christ’s human nature?

As for Jesus possessing sanctifying grace of his own divine nature – no. He (God) gives that grace. As he is sinless – perfect – there is no need for any sanctification on the part of his divine self. As for his human nature, how is it that God is capable of preventing sinfulness from passing into Mary’s human nature, but not capable of keeping it from passing into Christ’s? I just don’t understand.

You seem to be implying as well that Mary’s humanity was created by God, and did not come from her parents at all, and yet Jesus’ humanity came from Mary, rather than from God. Is this your view?

Also, you would do well to stop with the “this is satan’s view” comments in every post you make.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Did she make an offering for sin? Interesting question. I do know that she gave her only begotten son. Does that count?

Very good point.