Did Mary make an offering for sin?

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JOEHAR,

Are you having phun yet? Your Profile says you are Protestant and the sentances below reveal you are not of the Faith.

“Give me scriptures out of the bible, i dont just take anyones word I have watched etwn and shook my head. If i took this persons word as Gospel truth you better believe i checked it out in scriptures (KJV). its called being a berean”

Why didn’t you say you were a Sola Scriptura Church of Christ sceptic (skeptik). You have said that what the Apostle’s said, all of the Early Christian writers said and wrote plus what the Holy Spirit has reaveled IS WORTHLESS. That you, JOEHAR knows better.

We know the sect of the place called Berea. Do you know that Sola Scriptura people will not make a dent in the Theology of the Roman Catholic Church? Do you know that? If you are here just to have a few giggles by distracting some Catholics then fire away.But actually you are becoming a joke.
 
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joehar:
Give me scriptures out of the bible, i dont just take anyones word I have watched etwn and shook my head. If i took this persons word as Gospel truth you better believe i checked it out in scriptures (KJV). its called being a berean

Gen 3:14-15 was talking about EVE WHEN THE SERPENT DECEIVED HER IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. WHERE DID YOU PEOPLE GET THIS FROM
Joe,

are you serious when you say that God was talking about Eve? Have you actually read the verses? Or are you just repeating what you have been told to repeat?

If you knew your Scripture then you would know that God promised the coming of the Messiah in Genesis 3:14-15 and in promising the Messiah, He also promised the one who was to bear the Messiah. She is the one who is the Woman, not Eve.

Please go purchase some decent books and start reading the truth :rolleyes:
 
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MonicaC:
I am sorry but you are very wrong about this Mary did not sin, she is the only being besides God that was born without original sin. Why would God be present in a body that had sin. God planned this from the beganing.
Hi
Where do you get your information? and if you are right then the scriptures lie, God cannot lie so the scriptures cannot lie either.
This is a perfect example of man changing the word of God.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
 
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mercygate:
joehar, *where *do you get this stuff? Ya gotta stop getting your theology from Jack Chick.

Who is “all?” Has an infant sinned? Do the mentally defective, who have no use of moral judgment, sin?

Get a grip!
Hi
Hey mercygate, dont you believe your church, I thought we all were born with original sin. Therefore we ALL have sinned including Mary.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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oudave:
Hi
Where do you get your information? and if you are right then the scriptures lie, God cannot lie so the scriptures cannot lie either.
This is a perfect example of man changing the word of God.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
Dave

are you saying that the Bible is God? If so that is idolatry.

Have you bothered to read Genesis 3:14-15?

If you have read it properly then you would see that God promised the Messiah, and the Woman who was to bear the Messiah.

The woman is to be without sin because she is to be an enemy of Satan. This is not a reference to Eve because Eve has already befriended Satan and so there is no use in trying to continue to sweep this verse under the carpet. You need to deal with what is stated in the Scripture.

This is what happens when you follow the doctrines of men instead of the Sacred Tradition that comes from within the Scripture.

Maggie
 
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oudave:
Hi
Hey mercygate, dont you believe your church, I thought we all were born with original sin. Therefore we ALL have sinned including Mary.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
Don’t get disrespectful Dave! You know better!
You have had the Immaculate Conception explained to you before and if not you can easily find the threads where it is, as can joehar.

As for all this talk of Mary sinning…what a joke you guys are. The ONLY soul in all of history to be called “FULL OF GRACE” (look up the words that are tranlsated there) and you don’t think that means that she was empowered BY God to avoid sin? That would also mean that you make God out be a liar since you obviously don’t believe that He gives us all the grace that we need to obey Him and not sin. That concept, my dear friends is just about blasphemously stupid. How can anyone who believes the Bible is the inspired Word of God, NOT believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us to make it through life without sinning. Granted that we have to cooperate with that grace, but that was clearly the case with the Blessed Virgin since she says outright “Let it be done to me according to thy word.” Just the uniqueness of Gabriel’s greeting says VOLUMES about the Blessed Virgin Mary and her relationship with The Almighty. How can you NOT see that!? It all but jumps off the page at you.

You guys can CHOOSE to be obtuse if you want, but no one with two eyeballs and a brain is gonna be able to miss this.
Pax vobiscum,
 
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oudave:
Hi
Hey mercygate, dont you believe your church, I thought we all were born with original sin. Therefore we ALL have sinned including Mary.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
So Dave,

How to you get around the following passages:

“Rejoice so highly favoured (or Hail full of Grace), the Lord is with you.” (Lk 1:28)

“Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit”(Lk 1:41)

"The word of Yahweh was addressed to me saying,:

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you came to birth, I consecrated you;" (Jer 1:4)

Once again it is evident that you are attempting to twist the words of both the Scripture and the Catholic Church, well it will not work.

The words of Scripture tell their own story. The Woman, that is the one who was chosen by God to bear the Messiah was granted special favours from God from the moment that she was in the womb in order to prepare her for the role that was hers from the beginning. Mary was granted these favours because in being the Woman she was to be an enemy of Satan. Therefore Mary, who is the Woman could not be a sinner because if she had sinned, she would not

(a) be full of grace, or highly favoured by God;
(b) an enemy of Satan

Maggie
 
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joehar:
Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards
What? huh?
 
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joehar:
Mary did sin The word says all have all have sinned, Mary was a vessel to bring the saviour in the world. Because she was a virgin,the bible never said anything about her sinless. You catholics are going to believe anything that Pope says anyway oh and by the way Paul preached to Gentiles(the gospel) , not Peter. Be a berean and study to show yourself approve.

Regards
In all charity, you make some wild assumptions that you can’t prove. The Word says that “all have sinned”, but that quote is not taken in context, and you (or most likely someone else selling you on the idea) has completed the concept of “all WHAT”; your presumption is that “all” excludes Christ; in that, most people that call themselves Christians would agree.

What about those who can’t choose: murdered infants, the severely retarded? I’m sure there are others that we could both identify and agree upon without any debate. By use of simple, non-partisan logic, this proves that your interpretation is flawed. No one needs any Pope to do that.

Pope-bashing is symptomatic of your exposure to Christianity. The ignorance about the papacy you’re showing here is blatant to anyone who has honestly studied it.
  • by equating any Pope with “the Pope”; it shows that you just dismiss or demonize the office of the Pope
  • “believing anything the Pope says” is a cliche used by those who don’t understand the office; John Paul II could be wrong in a large number of things that he says, but when he says that he is exercising the teaching or moral authority granted to the office of Pope by Christ himself, and passed on via Peter, that’s all there is to it.
The incontrovertible evidence is that Peter died in Rome and went there to preach; and at the time Rome was Pagan (i.e, Gentile). Many of the apostles went to other countries to evangelize; we just don’t have any of their apostolic writings in the Bible. The assumption that you have accepted is that there is nothing outside of the Bible that is true. That is a base fallacy.

The problem here is authority; you seem to debunk the papacy, but you have swallowed someone else’s line of reasoning without questioning its validity. This is the flaw of protestantism: you MUST have an authority to reconcile these kind of issues; you just don’t recognize whose authority you are accepting.
 
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oudave:
Hi
Where do you get your information? and if you are right then the scriptures lie, God cannot lie so the scriptures cannot lie either.
This is a perfect example of man changing the word of God.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
Hello dave,

All I really have to say to you is that I feel really sorry for you. As St. Teresa once said “I say woe to all those who try to lead others astray.” If you don’t know what you are talking about then why do you speak. The majority of the people on this board is here to learn, so please take your hatefulness elsewhere.
 
For those Protestants who persist in the Bible Only Theory ( Sola Scriptura) here are some revalent verses visa vi Mary.These verses tell yo the difference between the two kinds of Jewish offerings (sacrifices). OUDave should read this throuroghly.

"In [Luke 2:24](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Luke+2:24), Mary makes the sin-offering commanded in [Leviticus 12:6-8](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+12:6-8). (The context is [verses 1-8](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+12:1-8).) She did this, not because she was guilty of moral failing in having conceived and borne a child, but because she and Joseph were faithful observers of the Mosaic Law ([Luke 2:23,24,39](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Luke+2:23%2C24%2C39)). They did what the Law commanded.

Temple sin-offerings never implied moral guilt, but were sacrifices made to expunge legal and ritual uncleanness. This is very evident, not only from [Leviticus 12:1-8](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+12:1-8), but even more from [Leviticus 15](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+15), where involuntary emissions, menstruation, hemorrhaging, and sexual intercourse produce ritual uncleanness, some of which requires the making of sin-offerings.

Leviticus clearly distinguishes *sin-offerings (which did not imply moral guilt) from *guilt offerings (which did imply actual sinfulness). The former are discussed in [6:17-23](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+6:17-23), the latter in [7:1-6](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+7:1-6). The distinction is reaffirmed in [7:7](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Leviticus+7:7) and in [Ezekiel 40:39](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Ezekiel+40:39).

In [Ezekiel 43:18-27](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Ezekiel+43:18-27), directions are given for purifying the altar and making atonement for it. Verses 19, 21, 22 and 25 call for sin-offerings on behalf of the altar. Of course, *an altar can be ritually unclean, but it cannot be guilty of moral guilt. Yet “sin” offering was made for it!

An example of **guilt-offering being made to atone for actual moral failures is found in [Ezra 10:10,19](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Ezra+10:10%2C19). The people’s sin was in taking foreign wives in violation of the Mosaic Law ([Deuteronomy 7:3](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions. RSV&passage=Deuteronomy+7:3)). For this, they were truly guilty.

Often people try to impose the customs of today onto the Jews of 2000 years ago. No! You have go back and look at the customs of their time.
 
Dave and Joehar:

Please, please, please read this carefully…very, very carefully…I was where you are. You keep coming here because on some level you know that we are speaking the truth…you don’t like that truth but on some level you just know. There is absolutely no other reason why you would continue to spout what you know we can refute.

In Him, and Him alone. Great, I understand that. From scripture show me the literal verses that teach
  1. Trinity
  2. That the Bible you use **today **is what is spoken of in the New Testament. Bear in mind, like it or not, the NT did not exist at that time.
  3. Dispensationalism
  4. That Mary was** not sinless.**
Now that you have gathered all of your vague texts and are formulating a response, recognize that you have been **taught **what the correct answer was. Through books, radio, preachers etc. With all due respect, neither of you developed the doctrine that you spout. It was **man created **and you present the views of your particular theology. Now recognize the hypocrisy of pretending that you don’t depend on other than scripture while you point fingers at us.

We love you, we really really love you. And we care. Just know that and know that the Holy Spirit is working on you in ways that you just haven’t yet figured out.

We’ll wait.

Blessings.
 
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joehar:
Give me scriptures out of the bible, i dont just take anyones word I have watched etwn and shook my head. If i took this persons word as Gospel truth you better believe i checked it out in scriptures (KJV). its called being a berean
I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is “parthenos”) will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.
 
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
 
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puzzleannie:
there is (are) already a couple of threads that give very good answers to this, basically Mary and Joseph obeyed the law in all things, as this action demonstrates, and also the understanding of “sin offering” as implying that Mary (or any new mother) had somehow sinned in conceiving and giving birth is flawed and does not reflect Jewish teaching or understanding. Both concepts are dealt with at length by more qualified people on the previous threads. also see the CA tracts on Mary.
Yes, Joseph, Mary and Jesus all went to the temple together because to not do so would be sin and we know that could not be right?
 
I do think that Mary , the symbol of humility would not have taken it for granted that she was sinless. A woman of her humility would have considered herself unworthy and therefore a sin offering was in order.
Carmelita
 
Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.
Jesus was also man. He would be included to be the list of sinners. But we know for a fact that Jesus did not sin, so all doesn’t necessary mean all all the time.
 
Today a co-worker of mine put forth an objection to the Immaculate Conception that I had never heard before. It goes something like this:

In Luke 2:24, Mary and Joseph offer two turtledoves as an offering at the temple. This was prescribed in Leviticus 12 which says one of the doves is for a sin offering. Mary’s presentation of this offering implies that she was sinful, for why would you make a sin offering if you are sinless?

Any ideas on how to answer this objection?

Thanks!
The offering is offered not only to Mary and to Jesus. It was also prescribe in the Mosaic Law mention in Leviticus 12:6-8. It’s actually an purification rite.

If Jesus did came out of the birth canal of Mary, he would be unclean since his body is covered in blood. Any Bodily fluid indicts in the Mosaic Law as being unclean.

“And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledoves for sin offering, and he shall offer it before the Lord, and a atonement for her; then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her, who bears a child, either male or female. And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atone for her, and she shall be clean.” Leviticus 12:6-8
 
Hi
Mary did sin, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus would not be included in ALL because he is God.


Bleeverz3:16, please tell us just HOW Mary sinned.

Be specific.

And doesn’t that “ALL” include Jesus, too?
 
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