Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

[sadie2723]

Maybe they are not touched because these Jews are wise enough to keep their mouth shut.

 

[inJESUS]

But I’m no dhimmi. And I will never become one either.

I know exactly what I’m talking about too.

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.

Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies?

Yet not one of them is forgotten by God.

to become a dhimmi is to be under their Law. Whether you fear them or not, whether you hold on to your faith ecc is irrelevent. Dhimmi= live their way, in their conditions.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Those who claim Muhammad taught peace are not supported by Islamic scholars.

Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Hamid, former chief justice of Saudi Arabia: “So at first ‘the fighting’ was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory: (1) against those who start ‘the fighting’ against you (Muslims) … (2) And against all those who worship others along with Allah.”
kashar.net/islam/?link=SJihad

This is what we’ve been saying all along - the peaceful verses were revealed when Muhammad was weak and when he was strong he changed his tune.

 

[pro_universal]

Maybe they are not touched because these Jews are wise enough to keep their mouth shut.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

to become a dhimmi is to be under their Law. Whether you fear them or not, whether you hold on to your faith ecc is irrelevent. Dhimmi= live their way, in their conditions.

But when you make this claim you’re essentially claming that their perception of us is more important than our perception of ourselves in the eyes of God. Or, for that matter, more important than how God even perceives us.

How can you make the claim that whether or not you hold to your faith is irrelevant?

That’s nonsense.

Whether or not you hold to your faith is actually the most relevant thing pertaining to one’s salvation and manifesting God’s will when faced with external conditions that force one to live another culture’s way.

People can use whatever labels they want to use-- but it will never change me as a person, or what I believe on the inside in regards to Christ as true God and true man-- my Lord and Savior.

Let’s imagine the worst hypothetical situation one could in regards to radical Islam.

Let’s pretend that the most radical aspects of Islam take over the West in some kind of massive overthrough and that we are hypothetically put under the most depisable conditions of 8th Century Koranic.

If something like this were to happen, would I now become a dhimmi simply because another society defines me that way?

No. I wouldn’t-- no more than Joseph did when imprissoned under the reign of the Egyptians, no more so than Daniel did when imprissoned under the reign of the Babylonians, no more than St. Paul did when imprissoned under the reign of the Romans.

Doesn’t anyone see the irony of how the thinkers of the Roman world totally missed that the Lord’s apostle was transforming their own society from jail?

Do you understand what I’m talking about here?

First of all, I care very little if I am judged by another culture; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

Furthermore, quite frankly, we have no excuse, we who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point we judge the other, we are condemning ourselves, because we who pass judgment do the same things.
Genesis 50:20:

You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Regardless of whatever happens – even if Islam were to hypothetically become the dominant force in Western society for a “little while” – I know that God intends to bring good out of it.

But coming back to reality, I also know it’s highly unlikely that Islam would ever become the dominant force in our Western society which is so throroughly entrenched with secular values. And anyone who thinks this could really happen here in the West really needs to do a serious reality check in my opinion.

So much of what I’m hearing against Islam here in the West seems to be based in part on a knee-jerk reaction to the paranoia of some massive subversive jihad that people fear all Muslims are ‘secretly’ planning.

In my opinion, this kind of paranoia is exactly what the radical Islamic extremists want us to feel. They want us to be scared, angry, and filled with just as much hatred as they feel for us-- because they want a war.

And everytime I hear the things I’m hearing from my fellow Catholics, this supposed call to arms through the maligning of all Muslims worldwide without recognizing the valid difference between moderates and extremists, the more I realize that they’re not placing their faith and trust wholly in God through the church.

We need the sacraments that the Lord has provided us. We need to pray our rosary as a mighty weapon of peace, and pray it openly and defiantly in the face of these warriors.

And if we think that we can win this battle with little internet skirmishes designed to malign all of Islam into a caricature of radical, Islamic militants, then we are surely more deluded and fallen from our faith in Christ then these Muslims ever were.

At the very least, our faithful witness is reduced to the rabble of argumentative angry brats who apparently don’t really know how to clearly demonstrate Christian love to their enemy anymore.

Many Muslims, in all honesty, don’t really know any better-- so we shold forgive them for they know not what they do.

We, as Catholics, however, do know better-- and there’s no real excuse for how we’re behaving right now.

In fact, when we react out of paranoia, just like how I’m seeing many fellow Catholics act here in regards to the radicals of Islam, then we truly are entering the role of dhimmi they’ve labelled us as.

And I’m quite positive that they’re laughing their butts off at us right now because of how we’re behaving.

 

[inJESUS]

well Mr. Ex-Nihilo, it seems you have a very Utopic idea of being a dhimmi…have you ever lived like a dhimmi? have you asked the dhimmis who live under Islamic Sharia? have you asked a Christian persecuted in Islamic countries? It seems you don’t care if you become a dhimmi or not…well those who experienced it do **NOT **share your feelings…better be safe then sorry…and the Islamization is a matter of time…secularism is irrelevant…a Christian or ATHEIST in Islamic Lands must live under their conditions whether he likes it or not…there is PUNISHMENT for not abiding with the Islamic rules…so the “secular” in a NOW Islamic country has to abide by the majority’s rule with a big smile on his dhimmi face…check the once Christian lands who are now Islamic lands where Christians are persecuted in all aspects. So if you want to “experience” it, go live as a dhimmi in Dar Al Islam…but other people are not obliged to experience it and must defend their religion, tradition and freedom by any means…yes God will help us, but God gave us reason…If you did everything to save your freedom and you failed, then fine, i can digest it…but sitting still, opening your arms to being a dhimmi and asking others to agree with you, well that does not make sense to me.
And this, unlike what you said, is not a tactic by Muslims to trigger fear in Infidels…it is a fact lived by people who used to think like you and are regretting it now.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Dhimmitude is not a badge one sticks on a lapel. It is not merely a ‘name’ without consequence. To live as a dhimmi is to be discriminated all your life - and all your children’s lives. It is not something to be lightly laughed off.

Someone wise once said, ‘it is better to die on one’s feet than grovel on one’s knees’. (or words to that effect).

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

well Mr. Ex-Nihilo, it seems you have a very Utopic idea of being a dhimmi…have you ever lived like a dhimmi?

Does this sound like utopia to you?
Hebrews 11:35b-38:

…Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

 

[ferdie]

Read about them yourself. They even criticize the President over his holocaust remarks in public.

I guess the catholics in this forum who are living in Arab countries are lying then. I myself experience some of the difficulties living with **some **muslims while still living in the Philippines, and mind you it is a christian country with less than 10% muslim population. A small misunderstanding can cause you your life, just like what other people say here that some muslims will make a mountain out of a mole hole.The only time you will believe is when you actually experience it yourself. Or maybe even if you experience it yourself you will still be in denial.

So reading it and living it are actually a world of difference.

 

[inJESUS]

Sorry but what are you telling us? that we “should” be a dhimmi? we should invite others to persecute us in order to be called “suffering” Christians?

 

[inJESUS]

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

inJESUS:

tell this to Mr Ex-Nihilo…he seems to like it being dhimmi…maybe it will make him a better suffering Christian dunno.

Excuse me.

But when did I say that I liked being considered a dhimmi by other people?

One of my points was that yes we can use this as an opportunity to bring our sufferings before the Lord. That, and that even if we are persecuated, we must face this as true Catholics and witness the truth despite persecution.

If you’re going to seriously engage me in dialogue, then I would ask you to at least respect what I’m saying and not stick intentions in my posts that I did not at all imply.

Do you understand?

 

[inJESUS]

Excuse me.

But when did I say that I liked being considered a dhimmi by other people?

One of my points was that yes we can use this as an opportunity to bring our sufferings before the Lord. That, and that even if we are persecuated, we must face this as true Catholics and witness the truth despite persecution.

If you’re going to seriously engage me in dialogue, then I would ask you to at least respect what I’m saying and not stick intentions in my posts that I did not at all imply.

Do you understand?

that’s why i said that if you found yourself in a dhimmi situation cuz u can do nothing, then i’ll understand it. But sitting still and opening your arms to dhimmitude knowing it is danger to your freedom, religion, land, tradition and family is suicide. So people who do not want the West to experience it know what they are talking about.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

that’s why i said that if you found yourself in a dhimmi situation cuz u can do nothing, then i’ll understand it. But sitting still and opening your arms to dhimmitude knowing it is danger to your freedom, religion, land, tradition and family is suicide. So people who do not want the West to experience it know what they are talking about.

Will you stop doing that please?

I’ve never invited any Muslim to come and dominate my life and view me as a dhimmi.

To the extent that we here in the West enjoy the freedom of religion, I’m calling upon the Muslim nations of the world to do the same.

And to the extent that we here in the West enjoy the authorities actively defending a plurality of faiths co-existing peacefully with each other, I’m calling upon the Muslim nations of the world to again do the same.

So when you say that I’m sitting here with open arms to dhimmitude (knowing it is danger to my freedom, religion, land, tradition and family) is suicide, you are truly mischaracterizing me as one who is ignorant of the dangers.

You don’t know me. You don’t know what circumstance my family has been through. You don’t know anything about me. And your limited experiences with Muslims do not speak for everyone’s experience with Muslims.

Quite frankly, your thoughts on the matter disgust me. Your lack of reverence toward my suggesting that we can use this to offer up our sufferings before the Lord in the Eucharist, something which you as a Catholic should understand, greatly disturbs me as being somewhat non-Catholic. And your inability to actually listen to what I’ve said without twisting my words to your own end really infuriates me.

May the Lord Jesus bless you peacefully with your interactions with the ‘other’ Muslims that you know. I don’t think there’s much else we can discuss here since you don’t seem to able to listen to what I’m actually saying without distorting my intentions greatly.

May Mary cover you in her blessings.

 

[Rocky]

I may be wrong, but I think that InJesus wrote about his conversion to Christianity from the Muslim faith in one of the threads that are now lost to us.

 

[Jeremiah_48350]

So, The House of David and Jesus and all of us Jews & Christians were apparently born as ‘infidels’ as we could not have been born Muslims. Muslim faith from Mohammed came 500 years later or so too. Perhaps it was meant as an answer for a different type of peoples, since they wanted to hear a different drummer, per se.

I like the words another poster put down in this thread…‘Islam is as Islam does’, well we see as they keep doing. Where are their leaders denouncing innocent killings even among there own??? The World is watching your actions and your deeds speak volumes of your love and charity (seriously lacking).

It is most difficult for us to love our brother whilest he killeth our friends and families and yet alot of Catholics and other faithfulls are praying for your correction or conversion. We are way more tolerant as infidels than those trying to kill us. I seriously hope that a divine event happens to awaken the injustices of this world.

 

[Jeremiah_48350]

Jesus was born a Jew, Islam faith is 500 years or so later to the scene (hello). Jesus followers was called “the Way” in the bible text also. Later Peter and other Apostles lead the faith to centers like Rome and started the 'Universal Church" accepted who ever wished to come in and listen to the word. Universal in Greek verbage was something like ‘Cathlikos’ and thus the terminology came to be Catholic. I believe this is the correct analogy, I am not a theology major though either.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I may be wrong, but I think that InJesus wrote about his conversion to Christianity from the Muslim faith in one of the threads that are now lost to us.

Then he should be talking about that and explaining his position more carefully so that he can lead other Muslims to the faith too!

Right now he’s being really insulting to my own thoughts on this matter regarding the how we Catholics should be offering our suffering to the Lord-- and he’s really turning and twisting my words around the process!

 

[johnnydigit]

Like any sola scriptura religion, it comes does come down to interpretation–some interpret it as a peaceful religion and some as endorsing violence. Which is the true interpretation? Well, I assume the guy who wrote it, Muhammed, would be the best place to look–and he personally raided caravans and waged wars against unbelievers…

makes sense. i took a secular college religion class and we were taught that Muhammad was in fact a peaceful man.