Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

[inJESUS]

well i live in a country of Muslims and Christians. You can see immediately the difference between both. Just go to a Christian neighborhood and the muslim neighborhood. You will even feel you are not in the same country it’s good though to live in a country where you can switch between 21th century and 7th century

 

[strawberry]

well i live in a country of Muslims and Christians. You can see immediately the difference between both. Just go to a Christian neighborhood and the muslim neighborhood. You will even feel you are not in the same country it’s good though to live in a country where you can switch between 21th century and 7th century

Remind me to contact you when I’m on my trip to your area
Cant wait to feel 21th century and then… weeeeoooww… 7th century…

 

[sadie2723]

Pro,
It is up to you to prove what I wrote is wrong - but you haven’t done that. All you have done is to commit an argumentum ad hominem against my dear Christian friends at answering-islam.

Secondly, I don’t always quote from AI - I use other sources as well. It’s just that AI has done an excellent job debunking Muslims like you and it is accepted practise to quote from other sources - something you wouldn’t understand - it’s called ‘research’.

By the way, did you know that Wherry thinks 2:256 was a Meccan verse?

I admit that it is very tough for Pro to do that. Just like when I post all of the scripture–if it can be called that–from the Koran that is very clear in calling muslims to kill for the faith. It is really hard to defend against something that is in your “holy book” in black and white.

The bottom line here is that muslims can argue all day long that theirs is a religion of peace, but their holy book does not indicate that at all. Sorry my muslim friends, but if you are looking for peace, I am afraid that islam is empty.

 

[pro_universal]

No, I don’t think i will read the Koran. Anymore than it was possible to read the book of mormon. The question was does Islam and the Koran teach peace or violence? If it teaches peace then it is a big secret because no one seems able to prove it. As I said before, the whole world knows what Catholicism teaches on the subject. No need for lengthy research, debate etc. It is simply written. But no one seems to agree for some reason on:
a. what the Koran really says.
b. or even if it really means what it says.
c. on whether Muslims know what it says.
d. on whether Muslims care what it says.
e. on whether certain muslims misunderstand what it says.
Perhaps Islam could get back to us when it figures out what it says and means for it is always confusing to discuss religion with people who have not yet clarified it. I have the same problem with Mormons. there are so many disagreements amongst the Mormons as to what the tablets actually say, who really was a prophet, what the history really was, who God actually is, where heaven is, whether polygamy is good or not, that they cannot possibly begin to explain it to anyone else.

This is a fine point, if you are willing to refrain completely from commenting on what the Quran says.

You’re saying you won’t read it. Fine. That means you can’t honestly enter any debate about what it says.

Please tell me what source you consulted as to these disagreements within Islam. It’s strange, because in my experience, there is widespread consensus on what the Quran means.

Every single major sect of Islam, and I mean every one, agrees that the Quran condemns killing innocent people and initiating aggression. The only people who disagree with their interpretation of the Quran are non-muslims who want to defame Islam.

But you can be assured, within Islam, there is not much disagreement at all on this point.

 

[pro_universal]

I admit that it is very tough for Pro to do that. Just like when I post all of the scripture–if it can be called that–from the Koran that is very clear in calling muslims to kill for the faith. It is really hard to defend against something that is in your “holy book” in black and white.

The bottom line here is that muslims can argue all day long that theirs is a religion of peace, but their holy book does not indicate that at all. Sorry my muslim friends, but if you are looking for peace, I am afraid that islam is empty.

Well, you could try reading the list of quotes I provided (which includes quotes right next to the “violence” quotes, putting it into its proper context.)

That might be a place to clear up your misconception about what is “clear” in the Quran.

 

[sadie2723]

This is a fine point, if you are willing to refrain completely from commenting on what the Quran says.

You’re saying you won’t read it. Fine. That means you can’t honestly enter any debate about what it says.

Please tell me what source you consulted as to these disagreements within Islam. It’s strange, because in my experience, there is widespread consensus on what the Quran means.

Yes there is. We totally agree here Pro…the consensus is that the Koran teaches hate and advocates violence. It is right there in the Koran for everyone to read…whew…glad we got that settled.

Every single major sect of Islam, and I mean every one, agrees that the Quran condemns killing innocent people and initiating aggression. The only people who disagree with their interpretation of the Quran are non-muslims who want to defame Islam.

Well, that would not explain why muslims kill and imprission Christians in Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, should I go on??? Realy Pro, you you seriously so blind about this that you deny the fact that muslims kill every day for no other reason than the fact that people have a faith other than islam? Why do they do this…hmmm…could be because the Koran teaches them to do it.

But you can be assured, within Islam, there is not much disagreement at all on this point.

Yes, they all seem to agree that it is totally cool to kill Christians and Jews where you find them, shoot nuns in the back like cowards, not allow any criticism at all of their faith without resorting to violence, and lieing about what their religion teaches when asked why they kill for it.

Seriously pro, this is a tough arguement for you to win, because muslims keep screwing it up for you in the news by following their faith.

 

[sadie2723]

Well, you could try reading the list of quotes I provided (which includes quotes right next to the “violence” quotes, putting it into its proper context.)

That might be a place to clear up your misconception about what is “clear” in the Quran.

I have done so. The effort was a good one. However, it is interesting to note which verses the muslims of the world seem to be following. Looking around at the dead inocent bodies on the ground, I think that they are following the example of the verses that advocate making war.

 

[pro_universal]

I have done so. The effort was a good one. However, it is interesting to note which verses the muslims of the world seem to be following. Looking around at the dead inocent bodies on the ground, I think that they are following the example of the verses that advocate making war.

Please answer this question specifically:

Is it possible that Muslims might ignore the teaching of the Quran and do something contrary to it?

Or is any act committed by a Muslim automatically something he thinks the Quran commands?

I mean, it’s obvious that Christians are doing things the bible forbids by the millions. Using your logic, I can easily conclude that the bible commands premarital sex and drug use, since both are rampant in Christian countries. After all, their “behavior” proves it right.

 

[sadie2723]

Please answer this question specifically:

Is it possible that Muslims might ignore the teaching of the Quran and do something contrary to it?

Of course.

Or is any act committed by a Muslim automatically something he thinks the Quran commands?

Of course not.

I mean, it’s obvious that Christians are doing things the bible forbids by the millions. Using your logic, I can easily conclude that the bible commands premarital sex and drug use, since both are rampant in Christian countries. After all, their “behavior” proves it right.

Nope, you missed it. The point of this thread is not if people are following the Koran or not…the point is “what does the Koran teach?” And, the Koran teaches violence over and over. It also teaches that the followers of islam are to hate people of other religions. The point is that those who engage in violence in the name of islam accross the globe are doing so because that is what the book teaches.

You may read in the Koran that all Islams are commanded to fight and kill people of other faiths for Allah, and then interpret that to mean that you are supposed to go have milk and cookies with Christians. It is your right to read it however you want. Still, that is not the point of this thread…the point is to talk about what the Koran actually teaches…and it teaches violence.

 

[pro_universal]

Of course.

Of course not.

Nope, you missed it. The point of this thread is not if people are following the Koran or not…the point is “what does the Koran teach?” And, the Koran teaches violence over and over. It also teaches that the followers of islam are to hate people of other religions. The point is that those who engage in violence in the name of islam accross the globe are doing so because that is what the book teaches.

You may read in the Koran that all Islams are commanded to fight and kill people of other faiths for Allah, and then interpret that to mean that you are supposed to go have milk and cookies with Christians. It is your right to read it however you want. Still, that is not the point of this thread…the point is to talk about what the Koran actually teaches…and it teaches violence.

Every single chapter with a so called “violent verse” contains a requirement that no violence be committed against people who did not attack first, and who do not pose a threat.

Look at the list of “violent quotes”. You’ll see that I’ve posted an unconditional command for restraint that comes from each of the chapters that those quotes are from.

Why is it that you won’t read the context? Are only violent verses authoritative, and not the verse right before that says “But don’t do this if the other side hasn’t attacked you”?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

That is just plain disingenuous pro. Ayat 9:29 is not preceded by a verse telling the Muslims to fight only those who fight them first. Read ayat 9:25.

Allah has helped you on many occasions,
including the Day of Hunayn
when your great numbers delighted you
but did not help you in any way,
and the earth seemed narrow to you
for all its great breadth,
and you turned your backs.

This talks about the Battle of Hunayn.

27 Then after that Allah will turn to anyone He wills.
Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

After the conquest of Hunayn - Allah turns his attention to all others - i.e. that had nothing to do with fighting Muslims first.

28 You who have iman! the mushrikun are unclean,
so after this year they should not come near
the Masjid al-Haram.
If you fear impoverishment,
Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills.
Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Here Allah vents his spleen at the Mushrikun.

29 Fight those of the people who were given the Book
who do not have iman in Allah and the Last Day
and do not make haram
what Allah and His Messenger have made haram
and do not take as their deen the deen of Truth,
until they pay the jizya with their own hands
in a state of complete abasement.

Then he turns his attention to the People of the Book.

Note how the Muslim is not revealing the context.

 

[sadie2723]

Every single chapter with a so called “violent verse” contains a requirement that no violence be committed against people who did not attack first, and who do not pose a threat.

Look at the list of “violent quotes”. You’ll see that I’ve posted an unconditional command for restraint that comes from each of the chapters that those quotes are from.

Why is it that you won’t read the context? Are only violent verses authoritative, and not the verse right before that says “But don’t do this if the other side hasn’t attacked you”?

I do read from context my friend, and I have read and studied the book and its teaching. I have also watched, countless times, as the people of Islam and the governments dominated by Islam’s teaching interpreted what was a “threat” and then acted upon it.

This is why thousands of my Christian brothers and sisters sit in jails in Islamic countries because they had a Bible in their homes. This is why cowards shot a nun in the back a few days ago…thanks be to God she was from a real religion of peace, and forgave them before she even hit the ground. I have watched as our churches were burned by people who thought that their very presence in an Islamic country was a threat. I have watched as people that were such cowards that they would not even show their faced, cut the heads of Christians and sent the pictures out on the Internet.

What I notice is that there is no big swell of uprising from the islamic peoples when this kind of stuff happens. Rather, we just get to watch them burn stuff in the street and chant like morons.

The point is this, the governments of this world that are dominated by Islam, are violent toward any faith that is not their own and especially toward Christians…in the name of Islam. They do this because they interpret anything other than Islam a threat. Once they determine that something is a threat, they can then put to use all of those violence teachings without giving it a second thought.

 

[pro_universal]

I have also watched, countless times, as the people of Islam and the governments dominated by Islam’s teaching interpreted what was a “threat” and then acted upon it.

Okay, so we agree that in Islam, a threat is required before any violence is permitted? We’re just disagreeing about what Muslims consider to be a threat now?

What I notice is that there is no big swell of uprising from the islamic peoples when this kind of stuff happens. Rather, we just get to watch them burn stuff in the street and chant like morons.

What percentage of the world Muslim population do you figure participates in these protests?

Further, what percentage of the Muslim world lives in a country that allows protests to go on for any reason? Is it fair to expect “uprisings” in countries where uprisings are cause to be arrested and tortured?

The point is this, the governments of this world that are dominated by Islam, are violent toward any faith that is not their own and especially toward Christians…in the name of Islam.

Could you please name some of these governments? The only Islamic theocracy is Iran, and they are so serious about protecting religious minorities they wrote Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians into their Islamic constitution, and they do protect them.

 

[tequilamac]

Okay, so we agree that in Islam, a threat is required before any violence is permitted? We’re just disagreeing about what Muslims consider to be a threat now?

What percentage of the world Muslim population do you figure participates in these protests?

Further, what percentage of the Muslim world lives in a country that allows protests to go on for any reason? Is it fair to expect “uprisings” in countries where uprisings are cause to be arrested and tortured?

Could you please name some of these governments? The only Islamic theocracy is Iran, and they are so serious about protecting religious minorities they wrote Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians into their Islamic constitution, and they do protect them.

Bottom line pro is this. Religions which have peace at their core do not make it difficult to prove it at their core. One can merely ask the question, get a yes or a no. The fact that there is so much arguing over whether Islam has peace at it’s core is a constant indicator that it simply does not. The fact is that no muslim can say we preach peace only to friend and foe and back it up. Islam cannot say it preaches love of one’s enemy and doing good to those who hate you. It cannot say it preaches forgiveness of the infidel. Because with Islam, all is conditional upon doing the will of the Muslim. Yes, we know it says the will of Allah. But we also know as Christians that the will of God is not to have innocent bystanders be beheaded and tortured. Therefore, while Allah might be peaceful, one can reasonably assume that which Muhammad did not have that as his main point. this is why Muslims on this board and eslewhere have such trouble proving Islam is a peaceful religion at it’s core. One cannot prove that which does not exist.

 

[sadie2723]

Okay, so we agree that in Islam, a threat is required before any violence is permitted? We’re just disagreeing about what Muslims consider to be a threat now?

I think that we can say we agree on the fact that Islam states that there must be some sort of threat. However, one must also admit, that Islam states that when a threat is perceived, violence and killing is the solution.

What percentage of the world Muslim population do you figure participates in these protests?

Not at all the point Pro. The point is that there is nobody out there from the “silent majority” talking about how those morons are turning Islam into some kind of joke. Now that is for one of two reasons: Either they just don’t care…which I doubt, or they support the position of the protesting parties. Either way, it does not speak to the fact that there is this “outraged majority” that is freaking out over what the “radicals” are using Islam to do.

Trust me, if there was a protest in my town lead by some Christians, and in the name of the Church, which was bent on advocating the killing of innocent people, I would be there to put an end to it…and I would not go alone.

Further, what percentage of the Muslim world lives in a country that allows protests to go on for any reason?

See above answer. If your statements are true, and protests are allowed to take place for any reason, where is the counter protest? Where is the outraged majority.

Is it fair to expect “uprisings” in countries where uprisings are cause to be arrested and tortured?

Well, that depends on your point of view. Christians are tortured, killed, and put in prison for teaching about Christ in Muslim countries where it is prohibited…that happens every day. Yet, the Christians do not stay silent. They do their work in peace anyway…in some cases they even know that death is certain. But, they refuse to let anyone pollute their faith or their message.

Could you please name some of these governments? The only Islamic theocracy is Iran, and they are so serious about protecting religious minorities they wrote Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians into their Islamic constitution, and they do protect them.

While the only Islamic theocracy is Iran, there are lots of other countries in which other forms of religion are not allowed, or seriously discouraged…Sudan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia…should I go on?

Oh, and I know that there are laws on the books in some of those countries that forbid oppression of religion…they just choose to look the other way when it happens. This is why thousands of Christians sit in Islamic jails and fall to their deaths at the hands of Islamic government officials. That is not peace, my friend.

As far as Iran goes, I have to laugh. Tell me, the fact that the President has stated in public address that he wants a nuclear war with Israel…you think that means he would be receptive to people building a temple in his town? How long do you think that would last?

 

[pro_universal]

As far as Iran goes, I have to laugh. Tell me, the fact that the President has stated in public address that he wants a nuclear war with Israel…you think that means he would be receptive to people building a temple in his town? How long do you think that would last?

There’s a whole Jewish neighborhood, with Jewish hospitals and Jewish synagogues, in Tehran. They’ve been untouched for the whole existence of the Tehran’s Islamic regime.

Here’s the problem with your above reasoning:

1. If there’s an oppressive dictatorship that tortures people to keep power, it’s not likely they can protest for any reason they wish.
2. The percentage does matter. You’re claiming that these evil people are tarnishing Islam; why should Islam be tarnished if less than a percent of its membership engages in this behavior?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mr Ex-Nihilo:

are you aware of the Islamic goal of Islamizing the West?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh shouts Allahu Akbar,the “moderate” Muslims will join him?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh asks for Sharia law in your land, the “moderate” Muslims will approve of it? are you aware that to a “moderate” Muslim, his “Umma” (nation) is more important than your belief and “dialogue”? are you aware that fanatic Muslims are taking advantage of the politically correct West and once they achieve their goal, your “moderate” Muslim neighbore will join them?do you accept to be a dhimmi in your own land? do you think that your “dialogue” will stop their plan ordained by their Allah? will you help their agenda by preaching the “good” teachings of Islam when the rest of their book insults your Lord and sends you to hell? what is your goal Ex-Nihilo? to introduce Islam as a “complemetary” religion of Christianity, disregarding the fact that you’re in hell according to their prophet? or is it that you only want a peaceful dialogue even if it will lead you to live as a dhimmi cuz Muslims do not really care about your dialogue when it comes to their goal set by Allah ?

I’ve seen what’s been said against Rolltide already in this thread when he tried to separate the hard truth from the lunatic-fringe fiction regarding the Islamic religion.

I’m not really interested in going through this too since Damascus has already made a good number of accusations against me in another thread.

Quite frankly, there are some fellow Catholics within this thread who have dealt treacherously with Rolltide-- a man who is himself a fellow Catholic brother. Rolltide has only presented careful and reasonable responses in this thread-- and yet I see many attacking his character with personal insults exactly because he refuses to agree with them.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

What, then, shall we say in response to this?

If God is for us, who can be against us?

He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?

It is God who justifies.

Who is he that condemns?

Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

As it is written:

For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[inJESUS]

Beautiful Mr Ex-Nihilo…i love your post.

though it is not related directly to what i said. I just wanted to explain Islam’s goal for people who think that Islam will not affect them because of dialogues. All in all, Jesus did ask us to defend our faith and this can be done in dialogue, and taking safe measurements…defending our faith does not mean putting ourselves and our kids in danger…yes keep good dialogues, but guard your territory and tradition cuz if you don’t, the dialogue will become harder when you become a dhimmi.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Beautiful Mr Ex-Nihilo…i love your post.

though it is not related directly to what i said. I just wanted to explain Islam’s goal for people who think that Islam will not affect them because of dialogues. All in all, Jesus did ask us to defend our faith and this can be done in dialogue, and taking safe measurements…defending our faith does not mean putting ourselves and our kids in danger…yes keep good dialogues, but guard your territory and tradition cuz if you don’t, the dialogue will become harder when you become a dhimmi.

But I’m no dhimmi. And I will never become one either.

I know exactly what I’m talking about too.

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.

Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies?

Yet not one of them is forgotten by God.

 

[ferdie]

There’s a whole Jewish neighborhood, with Jewish hospitals and Jewish synagogues, in Tehran. They’ve been untouched for the whole existence of the Tehran’s Islamic regime.

Maybe they are not touched because these Jews are wise enough to keep their mouth shut.