Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

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I have a feeling a letter went out from the bishop telling the priests what to say. I know this guy knows better, and he is generally more on the conservative side on issues such as these. I would not be surprised if he were ordered to do this. It is very discouraging. He would have been better off sayng nothing at all.

It is confusing to my son who knows better. I explained to him that too many priests lack courage to speak the truth today. They
are not walking “in the Spirit”, so to speak.

I knew Muslims when I went to college and they were just “regular guys”. I wonder what they are like today, however. Have they converted to a more fundamentalist view? I admired them for their self-control and respect toward women at the time.
I tend to treat each person as an individual. When it comes to groups or countries threatening my personal freedom it is a different story. We need to get a handle on this fast. I go by the past, and they took over Northern Africa and the Middle East
and I have seen pictures of Egyptian Christians living in dumps because they are so persecuted and oppressed over there. That is the price for living the true faith when you are in a Muslim-dominated country. I don’t intend to give in without a fight, and neither do my children. They are manipulating the weak among us, which includes those in the media and politics to assist in this, and they are being successful. They are no dummies, I’ll grant them that.
 
In the spirit of grabbing quotes from the Quran, I’m going to post quotes that by the same reasoning used above in Sadie’s post are proof positive that the Koran is peaceful.

I’ll start a challenge here too. For every verse that someone finds which supposedly commands violence, I’ll post two verses that are either good wisdome, neutral or command peace and restraint.

2:62. “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”

2:113. "The Jews say: “The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: “The Jews have naught (To stand) upon.” Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.”

2: 190. “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors”

2: 219. "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

2:224. “And make not Allah.s (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.”

And finally, of particular interest to Catholics:

3:42. "Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.”

What do you all think? Is this conclusive proof that the Quran is only good and says good things? If it’s not…then why is a short list of quotes proof that it’s bad?
 
pro_universal said:
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2:62. “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
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Oh no, not the surah 2 peaceful verses again.

How many times does the Muslim want to deceive? Surah 2 was revealed in the early Medinan period when Muhammad was relatively weak. The later, more aggressive verses like surah 8 and 8 were revealed at the end of Muhammad’s life when he was strong and his blood-thirsty evil character came to the fore.
 
inJesus,

Each one of your quotes is an out of context, specific command to fight only people who attacked Muslims first. You are taking commands to self defense and trying to misconstrue them.

From the same chapters, here are the calls for peace:

2: (I just posted five verses from that above…your one quote is clearly designed to give the wrong meaning to the entire chapter. Read above.)

8: You listed two examples of supposedly violent texts, which were really calls for self defense. Here are four quotes (twice as many) that show wisdom, neutrality, or restraint:

8: 10. “Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah. and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

8:25. “And fear tumult or oppression, which affecteth not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong: and know that Allah is strict in punishment.”

8:61. “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).”

8:70. “O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: “If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.””

You also quoted from Chapter 9:

Chapter 9 begins with: 9:1. “A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-”

9:4. “(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.”

9:6. “If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.”

9:27. “Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.”

9:71. The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.
 
pro_universal said:
In the spirit of grabbing quotes from the Quran, I’m going to post quotes that by the same reasoning used above in Sadie’s post are proof positive that the Koran is peaceful.

I’ll start a challenge here too. For every verse that someone finds which supposedly commands violence, I’ll post two verses that are either good wisdome, neutral or command peace and restraint.

2:62. “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”

2:113. "The Jews say: “The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: “The Jews have naught (To stand) upon.” Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.”

2: 190. “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors”

2: 219. "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

2:224. “And make not Allah.s (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.”

And finally, of particular interest to Catholics:

3:42. "Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.”

What do you all think? Is this conclusive proof that the Quran is only good and says good things? If it’s not…then why is a short list of quotes proof that it’s bad?
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If the book saying good things is the only criteria we should use to judge, then why stop with the Koran? Pro Universal, you would do just as well to study the Book of Mormon. It also does not have any of that pesky Trinity stuff you object to and says lots of good things. And then if Catholics everywhere can accept the Koran and the Book of Mormon as good and true, we could dispense with all of the trappings of religion and just use Chicken Soup for the Soul as our daily guide. It clearly says only nice stuff. But for most Catholics their search for truth and Christ does not rest in passages that make everybody feel warm and fuzzy and that might be a problem for those who use warm fuzzy feelings as their religious discernment.
 
When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called “al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh” (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses.

When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying.

They (naive Westerners) don’t know that the surahs/chapters of the Quran are not arranged in chorological order in regard to the timing in which they were written. Therefore an activist who is out to deceive them can turn to various places throughout the Quran and read verses that sound peaceful, tolerant, reasonable and loving. The impression is that the entire Quran promotes peace, love, equality and tolerance for all. That is far from the truth.

More about the abrogated (cancelled) suras in the Quran here:

islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
 
Allah himself confirms that he is the best schemer and plotter to trick/deceive non-Muslims {3:54 & 10:22}

Islamic Lies & Myth no 1 – “Islam is peaceful” - Well, Muslims might think killing human beings is peaceful, as mentioned in Quran 8:39 – ‘kill non-Muslim men, women and children, until there are no more non-Muslims in this world’, is definitely an ideology no sensible person will call as peaceful, unless he is brain dead.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 11 – “Islam is charitable” – If each Muslim contributed just 1 dollar, the 1 billion dollars collected, could have built 200,000 wooden houses for 1 million homeless Acehnese Muslims in Indonesia, who are suffering in tents today, since the tsunami of dec.2004. This prompted the Indonesian Ulama Council to condemn all Muslims as the ‘Invisible Muslims’. Earthquake Victims still live in appalling conditions in Pakistan, Iran, Algeria, Turkey, etc, Shame on you Muslims, not to care for human lives. But, Muslims will willing spend money for mosques, terrorism, conversion of non-Muslims as the Quran says, all for self-interest in gaining extra merit points from Allah only for themselves {selfish}.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 23 – “Islam is not terrorism, it is a very sociable and a open religion” - Sura 8.12 says, “I will throw fear (terrorize) on the unbelievers. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.” {Here, Allah himself admits, he is a terrorist who terrorizes non-Muslims. So how can Muslims say Islam is not terrorism and contradict Allah?} Why does Allah say in the Quran 3:28 & 9:23 Muslims not to be friends of non-Believers of Islam, even if he is a brother or father? Sociable? And 25:52 asks Muslims not to obey non-Muslims. So, non-Muslims cannot employ Muslims, can they?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 28 – “Muslims who terrorise do not know the true Islam” – Does that mean that it is okay for non-Muslims who do not know their true religion can murder Muslims? All terrorists are true Muslims because they follow what Allah said in the Quran, which is to murder non-Muslims.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 32 – “There is no compulsion in religion.” - Muslims always quote only the first sentence of Quran 2:256. But never complete the whole Sura, which is “ There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejected false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold, which will never break. Allah is hearer, knower.” So this means that there is no compulsion in Islam, only if disbelievers reject ‘false deities’ {false to Islam means all other religions} and believe only in Allah in the ‘right’ direction forever. This hypocrisy of the Muslims only to pick the first sentence and mislead non-Muslims is a devious deception in cunningness, practiced by most Muslims to deceive non-Muslims as though it is a very free religion. But in reality, this Myth is furthest from the truth.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 33 – Here is the clear evidence that Allah himself lies. In Quran 2:266 “Thus Allah maketh plain his revelations unto you, in order that ye may give thought.” And then Allah says in Quran 3:7 “None knoweth its explanations, save Allah.” {The Question is - Are revelations in the Quran plain for Muslims to understand or does only Allah know the explanations to understand them? Which sura is correct and which sura is wrong? They both cannot logically be right, can it? This is a contradiction within the Quran. Why is Allah lying to all the Muslims?}

This is all from former Muslims:

islamreview.com/articles/islamiclies.shtml
 
The Muslims lies again.

Surah 9 was written over a period of months. The early part of surah 9 was specifically revealed when Muhammad deliberately broke the treaty of Hudaibiyya which he signed with the Meccan pagans.

9:1 tells us that Muhammad (i.e. Allah) unilaterally cancelled the treaty of Hudaibiyya.

9:2-9:22 tells the Muslim to fight the pagans, particularly 9:5.

9:23 onwards is of a different period - following the conquest of Hunain. These verses were revealed post the Meccan conquest. So when pro tells you that these were specific to that period, he is telling lies.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden – such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book – until they pay the Jizya out of hand and have been humbled.

The reason why this particular verse is not historically bound but should be applied for all time is that Muslims applied this verse for centuries after by exacting the Jizya on disbelievers. You cannot claim this verse only applied for a specific period and then use it for centuries afterwards to persecute Christians and force them to pay Jizyah. Pro has been totally disingenuous on this issue.

Secondly, pro quoted various ‘peaceful verses’ out of context. The Quran is full of ‘Allah the most merciful, oft forgiving’ verses - right after the horrible ones. It’s just Muhammad’s perserve brainwashing.

It’s like:
Killing all disbelievers etc. etc. Allah is most forgiving, most merciful.

This is seen in the infamous verse 9:5.

Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

So Muslims may kill the pagans when the sacred months are past. Allah is all-forgiving, all compassionate. My foot.
 
tequilamac said:
If the book saying good things is the only criteria we should use to judge, then why stop with the Koran? Pro Universal, you would do just as well to study the Book of Mormon. It also does not have any of that pesky Trinity stuff you object to and says lots of good things. And then if Catholics everywhere can accept the Koran and the Book of Mormon as good and true, we could dispense with all of the trappings of religion and just use Chicken Soup for the Soul as our daily guide. It clearly says only nice stuff. But for most Catholics their search for truth and Christ does not rest in passages that make everybody feel warm and fuzzy and that might be a problem for those who use warm fuzzy feelings as their religious discernment.
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All of your arguments would be great if we were discussing whether or not the book is true.

This is a talk about whether or not the Koran promotes violence.

As such, yes, reading the book is a very good way to figure it out. It might even be the only way to figure out what the book says.
 
I’m waiting pro to refute Rodrigo’s post…

Cmon Pro… show us your best when dealing with violent verses…😃
 
strawberry,

I cited more peaceful verses above.

I don’t read Rodrigo’s posts because it’s a waste of time. If I wanted to spend all day reading “answering islam”, i’d just go to the site. His info is pretty much 100 percent cut and paste from there.
 
Pro,
It is up to you to prove what I wrote is wrong - but you haven’t done that. All you have done is to commit an argumentum ad hominem against my dear Christian friends at answering-islam.

Secondly, I don’t always quote from AI - I use other sources as well. It’s just that AI has done an excellent job debunking Muslims like you and it is accepted practise to quote from other sources - something you wouldn’t understand - it’s called ‘research’.

By the way, did you know that Wherry thinks 2:256 was a Meccan verse?
 
pro_universal said:
strawberry,

I cited more peaceful verses above.

I don’t read Rodrigo’s posts because it’s a waste of time. If I wanted to spend all day reading “answering islam”, i’d just go to the site. His info is pretty much 100 percent cut and paste from there.
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PLS note : answering-islam.org not just answering islam, people who are not familiar with answering islam site will go to 'www.answering-islam.com instead www.answering-islam.org
and surely you can do the same copy and paste from answering christianity… 👍 so far your preaching about peaceful islam is very unsatisfying. 😃
 
Breaking News: Religion of Peace sends “Message of Love” yet again.

Angry Muslims Burn 10 Churches in Nigeria
September 20, 2006

The authorities in Nigeria’s northern state of Jigawa have imposed a nighttime curfew in the wake of a violent protest by a group of Muslim youths in the state capital. The rioters attacked Christians following a blasphemous statement allegedly made by a local Christian woman about Prophet Muhammad.

…

At least 10 churches, 20 shops as well as homes of Christians were reportedly attacked and set ablaze by the angry protestors, who claimed a local Christian woman had made a blasphemous statement about Prophet Muhammad. The woman was said to have reacted to inflammatory language denigrating Jesus Christ by a Muslim man. Eyewitnesses say, at least six people are being treated at the local hospital, one of them is said to be seriously ill.

mensnewsdaily.com/2006/09/20/angry-muslims-burn-churches-in-nigeria/
 
pro_universal said:
All of your arguments would be great if we were discussing whether or not the book is true.

This is a talk about whether or not the Koran promotes violence.

As such, yes, reading the book is a very good way to figure it out. It might even be the only way to figure out what the book says.
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No, I don’t think i will read the Koran. Anymore than it was possible to read the book of mormon. The question was does Islam and the Koran teach peace or violence? If it teaches peace then it is a big secret because no one seems able to prove it. As I said before, the whole world knows what Catholicism teaches on the subject. No need for lengthy research, debate etc. It is simply written. But no one seems to agree for some reason on:
a. what the Koran really says.
b. or even if it really means what it says.
c. on whether Muslims know what it says.
d. on whether Muslims care what it says.
e. on whether certain muslims misunderstand what it says.
Perhaps Islam could get back to us when it figures out what it says and means for it is always confusing to discuss religion with people who have not yet clarified it. I have the same problem with Mormons. there are so many disagreements amongst the Mormons as to what the tablets actually say, who really was a prophet, what the history really was, who God actually is, where heaven is, whether polygamy is good or not, that they cannot possibly begin to explain it to anyone else.
 
Rolltide said:
I am a Catholic apologist who believes in ecuminism, I am not a liar. I could not remain in good standing at my college if I was. I treat everyone fairly as dictated by my Catholic faith. Catholicism teaches kindness, something which you are not practicing toward me, I’m afraid. Did you ever look at the Vatican website on Mary in the Qu’ran, by the way?

And I’m afriad you totally lost me on your last insult there. If you wanna call me cybercatholiccollegeprofessor, I think that’s a very accurate title.

Feel free to criticize what I say on here factually, but I’m fed up with the personal attacks.
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For the record, I thought you were doing an excellent job presenting your point-- a point that I too agree with.

If you care to join me in this thread, I will stand alongside with you and defend our Catholic tradition of ecumenical dialogue.

Our brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man, need to understand this tradition and not react in such a reactionary manner against Muslims as they have been lately.
 
Just to set the record straight: I said, ‘the Abbasids considered the Umayyads as traitors to Islam, not the average Muslim.’
 
Mr Ex-Nihilo:

are you aware of the Islamic goal of Islamizing the West?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh shouts Allahu Akbar,the “moderate” Muslims will join him?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh asks for Sharia law in your land, the “moderate” Muslims will approve of it? are you aware that to a “moderate” Muslim, his “Umma” (nation) is more important than your belief and “dialogue”? are you aware that fanatic Muslims are taking advantage of the politically correct West and once they achieve their goal, your “moderate” Muslim neighbore will join them?do you accept to be a dhimmi in your own land? do you think that your “dialogue” will stop their plan ordained by their Allah? will you help their agenda by preaching the “good” teachings of Islam when the rest of their book insults your Lord and sends you to hell? what is your goal Ex-Nihilo? to introduce Islam as a “complemetary” religion of Christianity, disregarding the fact that you’re in hell according to their prophet? or is it that you only want a peaceful dialogue even if it will lead you to live as a dhimmi cuz Muslims do not really care about your dialogue when it comes to their goal set by Allah ?
 
inJESUS said:
Mr Ex-Nihilo:

are you aware of the Islamic goal of Islamizing the West?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh shouts Allahu Akbar,the “moderate” Muslims will join him?are you aware that when the extremist sheikh asks for Sharia law in your land, the “moderate” Muslims will approve of it? are you aware that to a “moderate” Muslim, his “Umma” (nation) is more important than your belief and “dialogue”? are you aware that fanatic Muslims are taking advantage of the politically correct West and once they achieve their goal, your “moderate” Muslim neighbore will join them?do you accept to be a dhimmi in your own land? do you think that your “dialogue” will stop their plan ordained by their Allah? will you help their agenda by preaching the “good” teachings of Islam when the rest of their book insults your Lord and sends you to hell? what is your goal Ex-Nihilo? to introduce Islam as a “complemetary” religion of Christianity, disregarding the fact that you’re in hell according to their prophet? or is it that you only want a peaceful dialogue even if it will lead you to live as a dhimmi cuz Muslims do not really care about your dialogue when it comes to their goal set by Allah ?
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the point is STOP being DHIMMI!!! :mad: it wont bring you anywhere… or maybe the catholics here should live under sharia law or muslim countries. so they may enjoy how the muslims treat them…:rolleyes:
 
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