Did Russians interfere in the 2016 U.S. elections and is such interference acceptable?

[dvdjs]

The original email:Explain to us how this isn’t both an insult to our Church - a “middle ages dictatorship” - and a plan to change both infallible doctrine and the very structure of the Faith.

Thank you for posting an actual email - just a few words from which so much is invented.

The first things to note is the date. The emails were stolen while Podesta was chair of the HRC campaign, but written years before that. At the time of the conversation, neither were of the participants held an office in the DNC or worked for HRC. Sandy Newman, from my searches, is not Catholic (and he confesses a lack of understanding of the Church) but Jewish.

When Podesta says that “we created…”, he is clearly including himself among the progressives who worked with the founders of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good (Alexia Kelley and Tom Perriello) and Catholics United (Chris Korzen and James Salt). If you would like to know what the actual agenda of these organizations, you might look at the book coauthored by Korzen and Kelley: “A Nation for All: How the Catholic Vision of the Common Good Can Save America from the Politics of Division”. Here is also a link to the CACG website - hardly revolutionary. catholicsinalliance.org/

What to make of all of this?

1. There is nothing here that implicates HRC or the DNC in anything. Period. Any claim to the contrary is pure fakery, spun from an email that involves neither HRC nor the DNC.
2. Attribution of “anti-Catholicism” to Newman or Podesta, on the basis of one brief exchange, in a single moment, is as silly as selecting one post, in the midst of one thread, of a poster here, blowing it up into and “ism”, and taking that as the epitome of their character. A good razor: what do all the other posts or emails say? Is there a consistent pattern or plan, or is this a one-off or some excited utterance?
3. What other evidence is available to test the inferences drawn from the email? Allegations of anti-Catholicism in the DNC might be tested by an examination of the religious affiliation of office holders: the majority of Catholics in Congress are Democrats. This fact is essentially impossible to reconcile with a meaningful charge of anti-Catholicism in the DNC.

 

[J_Peterson]

…you might look at the book coauthored by Korzen and Kelley: “A Nation for All: How the Catholic Vision of the Common Good Can Save America from the Politics of Division”. Here is also a link to the CACG website - hardly revolutionary. catholicsinalliance.org/

Have you read that book and if so have you found it helpful? I just added it to my Amazon cart, may have to pick it up.

I was wrong, I was under the impression that Sandy Newman was Catholic.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Thank you for posting an actual email - just a few words from which so much is invented.

The first things to note is the date. The emails were stolen while Podesta was chair of the HRC campaign, but written years before that. At the time of the conversation, neither were of the participants held an office in the DNC or worked for HRC. Sandy Newman, from my searches, is not Catholic (and he confesses a lack of understanding of the Church) but Jewish.

When Podesta says that “we created…”, he is clearly including himself among the progressives who worked with the founders of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good (Alexia Kelley and Tom Perriello) and Catholics United (Chris Korzen and James Salt). If you would like to know what the actual agenda of these organizations, you might look at the book coauthored by Korzen and Kelley: “A Nation for All: How the Catholic Vision of the Common Good Can Save America from the Politics of Division”. Here is also a link to the CACG website - hardly revolutionary. catholicsinalliance.org/

What to make of all of this?

1. There is nothing here that implicates HRC or the DNC in anything. Period. Any claim to the contrary is pure fakery, spun from an email that involves neither HRC nor the DNC.
2. Attribution of “anti-Catholicism” to Newman or Podesta, on the basis of one brief exchange, in a single moment, is as silly as selecting one post, in the midst of one thread, of a poster here, blowing it up into and “ism”, and taking that as the epitome of their character. A good razor: what do all the other posts or emails say? Is there a consistent pattern or plan, or is this a one-off or some excited utterance?
3. What other evidence is available to test the inferences drawn from the email? Allegations of anti-Catholicism in the DNC might be tested by an examination of the religious affiliation of office holders: the majority of Catholics in Congress are Democrats. This fact is essentially impossible to reconcile with a meaningful charge of anti-Catholicism in the DNC.

Not fakery. It’s real. Newman suggested to Podesta, among other things, bringing power to bear on Catholic priests and nuns to keep them from communicating the anti-abortion message, and Podesta responded that’s why they created Catholics United and CACG, Podesta didn’t need to say it fifty times to express himself and expose his anti-Catholicism.

And the majority of Catholics in congress being Dems means nothing. There were plenty of nominally Catholic Nazis, including Hitler himself and Himmler.

 

[dvdjs]

Not fakery. It’s real. Newman suggested to Podesta, among other things, bringing power to bear on Catholic priests and nuns to keep them from communicating the anti-abortion message, and Podesta responded that’s why they created Catholics United and CACG, Podesta didn’t need to say it fifty times to express himself and expose his anti-Catholicism.

Bizarre reading.

1. The email was not about abortion; it was about the coverage of contraception.
2. This discussion of bringing “powers to bear”, from someone admittedly naive about the organization of the church, was about the leverage of the hierarchs over priests and nuns. The suggestion of a threat against them by progressive groups is gross misreading on your part.
3. “Podesta responded that’s why they created Catholics United and CACG”,. Not sure what you mean precisely, or who you think “they” is, but at face value it looks like you are thinking that these groups were created to pressure priests and nuns. That, following the discussion in item 2, would be a clear error in interpretation.
4. Podesta said nothing meaningfully anti-catholic in this email; the interpretation is a big stretch that has not been supported by anything else in the trove.

And the majority of Catholics in congress being Dems means nothing. There were plenty of nominally Catholic Nazis, including Hitler himself and Himmler.

You are not authorized to judge the Catholicity of anyone but yourself.

 

[Monkey1976]

You are not authorized to judge the Catholicity of anyone but yourself.

But we are free to judge that their words and actions are in direct opposition to the Faith they claim to hold.

 

[lynnvinc]

Here’s an interview that brings balance to the Russian interference on Democracy Now! segment today: Go to the segment “Scholar: Moscow Sees Hypocrisy in Allegations After U.S. Interfered in Russian Elections in 1990s” at democracynow.org/shows/2017/3/31

Be sure to watch what the scholar says after Amy gives the background story – he doesn’t see much problem in Russian’s interference per se, tho if there were coordination with US citizens that could be a problem. He praises Trump’s plan and desire to improve relations with Russia, and laments that the current issues swirling around are derailing that.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Here’s an interview that brings balance to the Russian interference on Democracy Now! segment today: Go to the segment “Scholar: Moscow Sees Hypocrisy in Allegations After U.S. Interfered in Russian Elections in 1990s” at democracynow.org/shows/2017/3/31

Be sure to watch what the scholar says after Amy gives the background story – he doesn’t see much problem in Russian’s interference per se, tho if there were coordination with US citizens that could be a problem. He praises Trump’s plan and desire to improve relations with Russia, and laments that the current issues swirling around are derailing that.

So in other words the left is willing to concede that the Americans interfered in Russian affairs, therefore Russia helped Trump.

Getting more desperate by the day.

 

[St_Francis]

I’ve asked before and was ignored. Give me an example of something that Catholics In Alliance for the Common Good has done in an attempt destroy the Church or change her teachings. You realize they are still active and aren’t operating in the shadows? There must be something definitive you can point to.

Co-sponsored a 10-city US tour of a priest who helped start Call to Disobedience. Fr Schuller was demoted from Monseigneur to priest by Pope Benedict, and was forbidden to speak in the parishes of each city he visited by the repective bishops.

Notice the other co-sponsors of this tour.

Funded by groups inimical to the Catholic Church, notably Soros-funded groups, not to mention their close alliance with definitely dissedent groups, such as “‘Catholics’ for Choice,” as they call themselves.

They may have failed to register properly with the government for 3 years. Clearly they are wicked people who should have Congress investigate them!

I am looking into getting firmer info on their donors; but ai have to set up an account and right now, I have to go and do some other things.

 

[dvdjs]

But we are free to judge that their words and actions are in direct opposition to the Faith they claim to hold.

You are free to do all sorts of things. That is different matter altogether.

 

[dvdjs]

So in other words the left is willing to concede that the Americans interfered in Russian affairs, therefore Russia helped Trump.

1. The professor is entitled to his opinion. What are the facts in support of it? Where are yours?
2. Interfere is broad. So broad that some even make the claim that Obama interfered in the an election of Netanyahu. So again what, precisely are the allegations? What are the facts?
3. The US does support liberty and democracy against tyranny. It does oppose tyrants who suppress liberty and democracy. I support my country in such action.

 

[St_Francis]

Co-sponsored a 10-city US tour of a priest who helped start Call to Disobedience. Fr Schuller was demoted from Monseigneur to priest by Pope Benedict, and was forbidden to speak in the parishes of each city he visited by the repective bishops.

Notice the other co-sponsors of this tour.

Funded by groups inimical to the Catholic Church, notably Soros-funded groups, not to mention their close alliance with definitely dissedent groups, such as “‘Catholics’ for Choice,” as they call themselves.

They may have failed to register properly with the government for 3 years. Clearly they are wicked people who should have Congress investigate them!

I am looking into getting firmer info on their donors; but ai have to set up an account and right now, I have to go and do some other things.

In order to look more closely at their financials, I have to pay, so I will just have to rely on free info from others regarding their funding.

However, they seem no longer to be a charitable organization, as that status has lapsed. In addition, their website is owned by Catholics in Alliance, not their full name. Under this shorter name, they are not listed in Guidestar, leading me to believe that they are no longer considered a charity, tho I am not positive about that. Nor are they listed on Wikipedia under their new name.

 

[lynnvinc]

So in other words the left is willing to concede that the Americans interfered in Russian affairs, therefore Russia helped Trump.

Getting more desperate by the day.

No, that was not the main point, plus I think most people knew or suspected already that the US is also involved in some covert operations around the world, and as you point out, more likely for the good.

I thought people on the right would like the scholar’s more balanced assessment with him saying that Russian interference was not a huge issue and that it is unfortunate Trump’s desire to have better relations with Russia (which would be a good thing) has been derailed at least for the time being.

So don’t worry about anything. Your man won, and if it comes to it, he would be replaced by Pence, and if it comes to it Pence would be replaced by Paul Ryan.

Either way life on earth is on track, with good boosts from all of these, to face massive extinction over the next 100s & 1000s of years from climate change and other serious environmental harms.

This whole thing about Russian interference and possibly US collusion really comes down to “not much” in the larger scheme of things.

I do think (and others have also pointed out) that Hillary probably would have lost the election due to several other internal reasons, perhaps including this perverse, maybe subconscious death wish here in the US. I never really thought Russian interference played a decisive role. I just feel sad for the harms to life being done, but hope at least elective abortions (if not deaths and miscarriages from env harms) will be reduced. At least some good may come.

 

[lynnvinc]

In order to look more closely at their financials, I have to pay, so I will just have to rely on free info from others regarding their funding.

However, they seem no longer to be a charitable organization, as that status has lapsed. In addition, their website is owned by Catholics in Alliance, not their full name. Under this shorter name, they are not listed in Guidestar, leading me to believe that they are no longer considered a charity, tho I am not positive about that. Nor are they listed on Wikipedia under their new name.

Went to their website and couldn’t find any anti-Catholic thing about it. On their “Life & Creation” page at catholicsinalliance.org/lifeandcreation they say:

The inviolable dignity of each and every human person, especially those who are vulnerable, is the foundational political concern for Catholics. That dignity becomes meaningless unless human life is valued both in our laws and in our culture. Indeed, as Americans, we believe, as our Declaration of Independence states, that the very purpose of government is to promote “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Catholics stand four-square in opposition to any and all degradation to human dignity and to life.

Today, human dignity and life is degraded by abortion, racism, violence, war, the death penalty, euthanasia, human trafficking, torture, environmental damage, and poverty. We believe that these issues are all related. In many situations, there are often nuances and root causes that need to be addressed. A person whom we persuade to respect the rights of immigrants is a person more likely to understand our concern for pregnant mothers and unborn children. Those who share our commitment to supporting family life must be challenged to embrace programs that provide affordable healthcare to everyone. A government that ignores the cries of the poor is a government that’s more likely not to account for the horrific human cost of war.

We believe that only by defending against all threats to life and creation will Catholics be able to credibly make the case for the culture of life and inclusion.

Sounds pretty good to me; they are anti-abortion, as you may note. However, it could be a wolf in sheep’s clothing, as you say.

There’s lots of deception out there and “there’s a sucker born every day” (as I tell my husband, who’s from India, when he exclaims we’ve just won $10,000 as claimed on some junk mail). For instance, most of the anti-science put out by the climate change denialist industry, for example, looks good on the surface, esp to those who are not up to speed in actual climate science.

One has to be very careful about deception these days, esp anti-life deception.

 

[lynnvinc]

In order to look more closely at their financials, I have to pay, so I will just have to rely on free info from others regarding their funding.

However, they seem no longer to be a charitable organization, as that status has lapsed. In addition, their website is owned by Catholics in Alliance, not their full name. Under this shorter name, they are not listed in Guidestar, leading me to believe that they are no longer considered a charity, tho I am not positive about that. Nor are they listed on Wikipedia under their new name.

It’s too bad (just read some of your links) that such orgs on the left promote a lot of very good, life & dignity enhancing things, but also some anti-Church things.

And it is too bad that many orgs on the right promote a pro-life stance on elective abortion but also promote (maybe unwittingly) death and destruction thru environmental harms & climate change.

I would be great if there were an org that promoted human dignity and life in all aspects, including being against abortion and for environmental protection and mitigation of climate change.

Oh, yeah, there is such an org – the Catholic Church!

 

[Monkey1976]

It’s too bad (just read some of your links) that such orgs on the left promote a lot of very good, life & dignity enhancing things, but also some anti-Church things.

And it is too bad that many orgs on the right promote a pro-life stance on elective abortion but also promote (maybe unwittingly) death and destruction thru environmental harms & climate change.

Can you point out a right-wing group that is directly advocating for the destruction of the environment? Not a call that advocates for things that may have a side effect of damaging the environment, but actual, direct calls for increasing climate change and harming the environment as ends in themselves. That would be a group equivalent to these groups on the left that directly advocate for abortion.

 

[buffalo]

I could not answer poll. A foreign country has always tried to influence our elections. It is not unusual.

 

[pepipop]

No.

This about sums up the allegations.

*On April 1, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted a spoof voicemail offering “Russian hackers services” and “election interference.” And the mainstream US media appears not amused.

“You have reached the Russian embassy, your call is very important to us. To arrange a call from a Russian diplomat to your political opponents, press one,” the message posted on the ministry’s official Facebook page says, playing first in Russian, then in English.

“To use the services of Russian hackers press two,” it goes on.

“To request election interference, press three and wait until the next election campaign. Please note that all calls are recorded for quality improvement and training purposes.”*

rt.com/news/383098-russia-foreign-ministry-spoof-hackers/

 

[Michael68]

No.

This about sums up the allegations.

*On April 1, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted a spoof voicemail offering “Russian hackers services” and “election interference.” And the mainstream US media appears not amused.

“You have reached the Russian embassy, your call is very important to us. To arrange a call from a Russian diplomat to your political opponents, press one,” the message posted on the ministry’s official Facebook page says, playing first in Russian, then in English.

“To use the services of Russian hackers press two,” it goes on.

“To request election interference, press three and wait until the next election campaign. Please note that all calls are recorded for quality improvement and training purposes.”*

rt.com/news/383098-russia-foreign-ministry-spoof-hackers/

 

[dvdjs]

This about sums up the allegations.

Fascinating. Our nation is investigating the work of an adversarial nation to undermine our intitutions and you are quoting from the propaganda organ of that nation. They surely seem to have gotten to you.

And how odd that you can’t press three, four, and five to murder opposition leaders, incarcerate protesters, and ruin journalists, respectively.

 

[dvdjs]

Can you point out a right-wing group that is directly advocating for the destruction of the environment?

Ahhh, “direct” advocacy. OK. Then we should be able to stop the nonsense about democrats advocating abortion. Directly.