Did the Pope say that God and Allah are the same person?

[JReducation]

Are you saying that the three Ecumenical Councils are not loving the Muslims and Hindus very much or someone else isn’t? Why did you not quote the teachings of the three ecumenical councils, and perhaps a pope declared a saint, like St. Pius X?

… Do you know how many Blesseds and Venerables we have who have languished there and never made the final step? Did you know that Blesseds and Venerables aren’t declared to even be in Heaven?

Do you think that under one of the previous Ecumenical Councils, or sainted Popes, that some of the recent diplomatic overtures would have… gone over… well? To put it lightly?

Benedict XVI is the current pope. These other holy men would have us obey and follow the pope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cathain]

Benedict XVI is the current pope. These other holy men would have us obey and follow the pope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

For the sake of argument, what if a Pope were in error?

It’s not heresy to say such a thing is possible surely, for even past Popes and Saints have claimed that previous pontiffs have held to erroneous beliefs and doctrines. If it were then the case, would the faithful be required to follow any prelate into error? Or would the greater fidelity be to Sacred Tradition and the Deposit of Faith?

 

[Ignatius]

I heard today from a friend that the Pope recently said that Muslims and Catholics worship the same god/God. ?

This is so sad. You obviously have access to the internet so you should be able to do the research yourself.

Anyway, the Arabic (and Aramaic by the way) word for God is Allah. If you get an Arabic language version of the Bible Gen 1:1 will read In the beginning Allah created the heavens and the earth. The word allah is the word for god in Arabic, Aramaic, Syriac and many other middle eastern languages.

When I was still teaching, if I had a student who displayed so little inclination to find out the facts for them selves I would tell them “You need to use the brain that God gave you and stop being so lazy!”, but since you are not my student, I won’t say it to you.

 

[ntenaglia]

I heard today from a friend that the Pope recently said that Muslims and Catholics worship the same god/God. Is that accurate? I mean … did the Pope make that statement?

I don’t know if the Pope said that, but I’d like to add something to this thread. I spent many years away from the Church and spent that time studying different religions. This is how I explain what I’ve learned.

Have you ever heard the story about 3 blind men and an elephant? Well, just in case you haven’t here goes. Three blind men are standing around an elephant and each one tries to describe the elephant. The one at the head reaches out his hand touches the trunk and says an elephant is long and wiggles like a snake. The one at the side reaches out, touches a leg and says no, the elephant is tall and sturdy like a tree. The one at the back reaches out touches the tail and says that an elephant is small and stiff like a twig. Each one only sees part of the elephant, but each one is correct because the elephant is all of these parts.

God is like that elephant. Each religion worships and sees the same God. But each culture interprets that God in a different way. Some of those cultures see one entity, others cannot conceive that an entity so amazing could be only one God and so they have named the many aspects of God by other names. When it comes down to it, God is God no matter what the name a religion names Him.

 

[human_being]

The devil lies. Sure Muhammad’s “angel” said he was from God. That doesn’t make it true. The devil concocts all manner of lies in order to lead people away from Jesus and into Hell. That’s his job, that’s what he does, and he does it very well.

As a Catholic who has studied Islam, even before being a Christian, I will tell you that Muslims do NOT worship God. They might “think” they do. Yes, of course they think they do. But in all honesty they don’t. I am not ignorant about Islam. Maybe the Pope is. We should all pray for him.

I highly doubt that the pope is ignorant to Islam. He is a very intelligent man who had a very important position under Pope JPII. But I do raise an eyebrow to some of the ecumenical, seemingly freemason-type views that have permeated the world since pre-French revolution days. But the Church is much more up on things than me. But it is a free-mason ideal of believing that all roads lead to one place and the church warned against this in the 19th century. But the Pope probably was very careful to the language that he used in his statement because he must uphold the teachings of the church and maybe he is being misquoted.
Is there a link to this statement?

 

[Shin]

I don’t know if the Pope said that, but I’d like to add something to this thread. I spent many years away from the Church and spent that time studying different religions. This is how I explain what I’ve learned.

Have you ever heard the story about 3 blind men and an elephant? Well, just in case you haven’t here goes. Three blind men are standing around an elephant and each one tries to describe the elephant. The one at the head reaches out his hand touches the trunk and says an elephant is long and wiggles like a snake. The one at the side reaches out, touches a leg and says no, the elephant is tall and sturdy like a tree. The one at the back reaches out touches the tail and says that an elephant is small and stiff like a twig. Each one only sees part of the elephant, but each one is correct because the elephant is all of these parts.

God is like that elephant. Each religion worships and sees the same God. But each culture interprets that God in a different way. Some of those cultures see one entity, others cannot conceive that an entity so amazing could be only one God and so they have named the many aspects of God by other names. When it comes down to it, God is God no matter what the name a religion names Him.

I’ve heard that story more than once, but in this case it is not an apt story, because it is not three blind men studying an elephant, but God Himself coming to earth and revealing Himself to mankind, and founding His Church to teach all mankind what He has revealed.

The elephant in the room, in this case, would be the Church, and it would be three men – one who can see the elephant, and two others one who is busy trying to ignore it or claim its a particularly large aardvark, and the other who too busy listening to him to really look at the elephant.

And they had better watch out because it is rather big. lol.

 

[ntenaglia]

I’ve heard that story more than once, but in this case it is not an apt story, because it is not three blind men studying an elephant, but God Himself coming to earth and revealing Himself to mankind, and founding His Church to teach all mankind what He has revealed.

The elephant in the room, in this case, would be the Church, and it would be three men – one who can see the elephant, and two others one who is busy trying to ignore it or claim its a particularly large aardvark, and the other who too busy listening to him to really look at the elephant.

And they had better watch out because it is rather big. lol.

It seems to me that the Church is so influenced by opinions of various groups and societies that it almost seems that if St. Peter would harldy recognize it.

And I guess the point I was trying to make was that there is only one God, but different cultures perceive Him differently and worship him differently but we’re all children of God.

 

[JReducation]

For the sake of argument, what if a Pope were in error?

It’s not heresy to say such a thing is possible surely, for even past Popes and Saints have claimed that previous pontiffs have held to erroneous beliefs and doctrines. If it were then the case, would the faithful be required to follow any prelate into error? Or would the greater fidelity be to Sacred Tradition and the Deposit of Faith?

The key that makes this safe to believe and is why the Church teaches that we worship the same God is that Islam does not deny the God of Abraham. In fact, Islam accepts the God of Abraham as he revealed himself to Abraham.

Islam believes that Jews and Christians have distorted the revelation made by the God of Abraham.

The Church knows that we have done no such thing. But at least we agree on one thing, we agree on the God of Abraham.

In the past, the Church responded as it did to protect Christians who were uneducated from being converted to Islam. Today, the world is different. The Church responds differently.

The Church never taught that the God of Abraham was a false God. As long as Islam proclaims faith in the God of Abraham, we’re talking about the same God, even if we are disagreeing on revelation.

To simplify this: God is one topic and Revelation another.

Christians, Jews and Muslims agree on God. We disagree on Revelation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sr_Sally]

Lisa, you should pick up a copy of The Great Heresies. It has an incrediable clear explanation of how Islam came to be and how it confuses Truths as taught by the Catholic church which was in power in the Middle East at the time and the political goals of the non-Christian Arabs. Despite how confused the Muslims are, underlying their faith are those truths and as another poster says farther down, God can use that to lead them out of their errors into the light of Full and True Faith.

Let’s commit to pray for their converstion.

Thank you for your warning, I will be more careful with language.

It is in fact true that the Jews worship God, and do so inadequately if they don’t recognize the Messiah. Muslims however, have no connection to Judaism or Christianity except for the fact they plagarized the earlier monotheistic religions in order to give credence to their perverted beliefs. Muslims do not worship God. They neither worship the God of the Old Testament or the New. The angel who came to Muhammad was a demon who’s job was to lead people AWAY from truth. What contradicts truth cannot be truth. What is anti-God cannot be God. What is evil IS in fact evil. It is from the devil. You know, that guy who tempted Jesus…:thumbsup:

I will go rounds and rounds on this subject and have.

I suggest that all those who doubt that the Koran is demonic I suggest you start studying. You must read the Koran and read the Hadith. This way you will really know what Islam teachs. The Hadith is the teachings of Muhammad and his life. By knowing this man, you will really know if Islam is from God or from a demon. But if you are unwilling to study then you will not be a competent judge.

Also, this notion that they do not have the “complete and true faith” is absolutely false. That is like saying a lie is not the complete truth! No kidding! A lie is a lie is a lie. “Jesus in not God” - is a LIE. That is not incomplete, that is a lie.

In contrast, a Jew who says that Jesus is not God, yet who still believes in the Old testament, that is indeed an “incomplete” faith. It does have partial truth as the Old Testament is also from God.

The Koran, however, is not “partial” truth, it is an outright fabrication or lie. It was not from God at all. It is some truths taken from Judaism and Christianity and mixed with LIES to lead people into hell. It is the work of a demon. Be WARNED.

 

[Stylites]

It seems that some people think their own opinions are just as important as the Popes’ when it comes to matters of faith and morals, as if people say to them when they walk into a room: 'Your Holiness."

 

[bobbyva2001]

It seems to me that the Church is so influenced by opinions of various groups and societies that it almost seems that if St. Peter would harldy recognize it.

And I guess the point I was trying to make was that there is only one God, but different cultures perceive Him differently and worship him differently but we’re all children of God.

I disagree. The world has certainly changed and the church has grown but Catholic doctrine and liturgy have changed very little given it is 2,000 years old. Evidence of that can be found in the writings of the early church fathers who described the proceedings of the Mass and the beliefs of the people.

While we all are children of God I certainly do not think that he is indifferent to how different cultures worship him. Furthermore it seems unrealistic to assume that one is no better than the other all being equal.

 

[ntenaglia]

While we all are children of God I certainly do not think that he is indifferent to how different cultures worship him. Furthermore it seems unrealistic to assume that one is no better than the other all being equal.

Speaking for God, wow that’s really something.

 

[bobbyva2001]

Speaking for God, wow that’s really something.

I am Catholic not indifferent. My God is the Holy Trinity which includes Jesus Christ and this is who I take my instruction from. His church. I do not need to make an interpretation of who God is for I need no more than to read his words and follow them. That is the difference.

And he said I am the way the truth and the light. So I have seen Christ as the truest ever to lay claim to such a thing and so I follow him. Not look at him as a interpretation of a culture.

If I did that I would see no difference between the Ancient Aztecs who sacrificed humans and Christianity. That is not logical.

 

[pnewton]

We believe in the Trinity. Please explain to me how the Trinity is the same God that the Jews & Muslims worship. I just don’t see it–this seems to be some sort of politically correct nonsense, designed to appease other religions.

Consider that Moses did not worship a Trinitarian God. The same is true for Abraham, David and many others. We would not say they worshiped a different God.

How far off from the nature of God does one have to be before it should be considered a different God? Paul at the Acropolic used a statue to the Unknown God and said that which they worshipped without knowing he was there to make known to them. That was pretty radically different. I think when we ponder the infinity of God and how little we actually know of God, I think the differences become comparably less. We are looking through a glass darkly and judging the darkness of the glass of others.

There are so many issues with Islam I do not see that this one is worth much concern.

 

[JReducation]

The point of the thread is to understand what the Holy Father said and what it means, not to engage in arguments with each other, folks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

They answered and said to him, “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father!” (So) they said to him, “We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God.”

John 8:39-47

‘All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!’

St. Francis of Assisi

‘Depend upon it there is no craft half so profitable and successful as simplicity. Worldly prudence and artifice belong to the children of this world; but the children of God go straight on with a single heart and in all confidence; - falsehood, deceit and duplicity are sure signs of a mean, weak mind.’

St. Francis de Sales

‘Although we have received the power to become the children of God (cf. John 1:12), we do not actually attain this sonship unless we strip ourselves of the passions. Let no one think that he has actually become a child of God if he has not yet acquired divine qualities. We are sons of God or of Satan according to whether we conform to goodness or to evil.’

St. Thalassios the Libyan

‘Alas! the poor infidels, who have not the happiness of knowing God and His infinite loveliness, have the same crosses that we have; but they have not the same consolations.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

‘See, my children, it is faith that we want. . . . When we have not faith, we are blind. He who does not see, does not know; he who does not know does not love; he who does not love God loves himself, and at the same time loves his pleasures. He fixes his heart on things which pass away like smoke. He cannot know the truth, nor any good thing; he can know nothing but falsehood, because he has no light; he is in a mist. If he had light, he would see plainly that all that he loves can give him nothing but eternal death; it is a foretaste of Hell.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

'The Sultan asked Francis why, in the light of this teaching of Jesus, Crusaders should be invading the lands of the Muslims? Since the passage teaches “turning the other cheek” and repaying evil with good, the Sultan was contending that there was no justification for the Crusader invasions, even though he knew that the Muslims had taken the land by force from the Christians centuries earlier.

Once again the response of Francis surprised al-Kamil. The Saint declared the Sultan had not completely studied the Gospel, and pointed out to the King the words Our Lord had spoken earlier in the same discourse.

“And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast if from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut if off, and cast if from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body go into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30)

… explaining Our Lord’s words that a person should pluck out his own eye if it is leading him astray, Francis continued. . .

‘Here he wanted to teach us that every man, however dear and close he is to us, and even if he is as precious to us as the apple of our eye, must be repulsed, pulled out, expelled if he seeks to turn us aside from the faith and love of our God. That is why it is just that Christians invade the land you inhabit, for you blaspheme the name of Christ and alienate everyone you can from His worship. But if you were to recognize, confess, and adore the Creator and Redeemer, Christians would love you as themselves. . .’"

• St. Francis of Assisi and the Conversion of the Muslims, by Frank M. Rega, third order Franciscan

 

[JReducation]

Consider that Moses did not worship a Trinitarian God. The same is true for Abraham, David and many others. We would not say they worshiped a different God.

How far off from the nature of God does one have to be before it should be considered a different God? Paul at the Acropolic used a statue to the Unknown God and said that which they worshipped without knowing he was there to make known to them. That was pretty radically different. I think when we ponder the infinity of God and how little we actually know of God, I think the differences become comparably less. We are looking through a glass darkly and judging the darkness of the glass of others.

There are so many issues with Islam I do not see that this one is worth much concern.

I want to add to what you’re saying that the Church is very careful about pushing people to accept something that they believe is a sin. To Muslims and Jews the Trinitarian paradigm is a sin, because it is in conflict with their understanding of the oneness of God.

Moral theology tells us that one may not act when one believes something to be a sin, even if it isn’t. One must follow one’s conscience until the doubt is removed. That’s an old moral law that dates back to Augustine. Never act on a doubtful conscience. One who does is subjectively guilty of sin.

The problem is not whether the Muslims and Jews worship the same God. The Church believes that they do, because it is the God of Abraham who is also the God of Jesus Christ.

The real problem is the Trinity. We as Catholics know that we do not have a rational explanation for the Trinity. We have many hypotheses, but none of them can be proven. We live by faith. Let us not forget Augustine’s struggle to explain the Trinity.

Even among Christians, there is disparity in our understanding of the Trinity. It’s not a small wonder that there would be disparity with those who are not Christian.

The goal of the dialogue between the Church and the Muslims is to lead them to an understanding of our faith through exposure to us the believers. The best missionary is the one who preaches by example rather than the one who teaches by force.

Look at the impact that Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity have had among the people of Calcutta or that the Franciscans have had among the Palestinians and the Jews. Little by little they have managed to alleviate the fears that these people had of Christians.

Of course there are always going to be loose canons in every group, even among Christians. Just look at the guy who killed Dr. Tiller.

We cannot judge an entire faith group by the loose canons. Nor can we say that they do not believe in the same God because of they do not understand something that we cannot explain except through faith.

This is the reason that Cardinal Ratzinger founded the Commission on Catholic and Islamic Affairs. He wanted to use reason to explain faith and faith to enlighten reason. Why? Because reason is something that both sides can subscribe to. You always begin with something that both sides have in common.

Both sides beleive in the same God who is Father, Creator, Mercy, Love, Justice and Judge. The issue at hand is how this God has revealed himself. The fulness of this revelation subsists within the Catholic Church. But we have to let people discover that gradually on God’s time table, not our own. We just have to open the door.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

'The Sultan asked Francis why, in the light of this teaching of Jesus, Crusaders should be invading the lands of the Muslims? Since the passage teaches “turning the other cheek” and repaying evil with good, the Sultan was contending that there was no justification for the Crusader invasions, even though he knew that the Muslims had taken the land by force from the Christians centuries earlier.

Once again the response of Francis surprised al-Kamil. The Saint declared the Sultan had not completely studied the Gospel, and pointed out to the King the words Our Lord had spoken earlier in the same discourse.

“And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast if from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut if off, and cast if from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body go into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30)

… explaining Our Lord’s words that a person should pluck out his own eye if it is leading him astray, Francis continued. . .

‘Here he wanted to teach us that every man, however dear and close he is to us, and even if he is as precious to us as the apple of our eye, must be repulsed, pulled out, expelled if he seeks to turn us aside from the faith and love of our God. That is why it is just that Christians invade the land you inhabit, for you blaspheme the name of Christ and alienate everyone you can from His worship. But if you were to recognize, confess, and adore the Creator and Redeemer, Christians would love you as themselves. . .’"

• St. Francis of Assisi and the Conversion of the Muslims, by Frank M. Rega, third order Franciscan

We have to add here several other points from Franciscan history.

1. Our holy father Francis dearly loved the Muslims. He did not wish them harm. The Sultan was so impressed by his love and humility that he said he would convert to Christianity immediately, if all Christians were like Francis.
2. Francis did not threaten the Muslims or threaten their faith. He encouraged them to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.
3. Francis apologized to the Muslims for the crimes that the Christians committed against them.
4. Francis did not succeed in converting the Sultan, but succeeded in getting a promise from the Sultan to treat the Christian prisoners of war with justice. This particular Sultan kept his promise. LEGEND has it that he converted on his deathbed.
5. These writings are from the Legenda Maiore of the Life of St. Francis. We do not know for sure how accurate they are. They were not written by Francis, but by our early friars. Francis probably said much more than this. There is no other explanation for the agreement, except that they spoke about many topics.
6. Shortly after that meeting, the Muslims in West Africa gave the Franciscans clear passage to Palestine and have honored that to this day. The Muslims from the east did martyr some friars But they never had contact with Francis.
7. To this day the Franciscan Commisereate of the Holy Land has existed in Palestine, now Israel and in Jordan, which proves that the heart of the Sultan and his people did soften.
8. Today the Franciscan Commisereate runs projects and other ministries with the cooperation of Jews and Muslims, such as the Franciscan Center for the Family in Jerusalem.
9. The early friars always worked with the Muslims and Jews in Palestine. There have been conversions to Eastern Catholicism as a result of this patient and ongoing contact.

You must be careful not to quote our holy father Francis out of context. It changes the reason behind the writings of the orginal Franciscan historians. These writings were compiled to help the friars in formation understand that the entire world was their brother and sister and that they were called to proclaim the Gospel to all, not to teach the young friars to see others in a negative light. That would be contrary to Francis’ view of the universe and of man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[RobbyS]

We’re all on the same train to salvation…

The Catholics are in first class. The SSPX are in second class, along with other Christian denominations. The Muslims are in the coal bunker.

But it don’t matter, cause we’re all going to the same place! YAY!

(the above does not reflect my own views. It is what was puked (sorry for the disresepect, but one cannot revere a falsehood) by a prominent Catholic priest, to a good friend of mine…)

Why would you be a Catholic? Hell, its so much harder to be a good Catholic than a good (false) Christian!

Bring on our new understanding of the truth!

Our Lord said take up your cross and follow me. That’s doesn’t suggest first class. We are in the desert, we are in the valley of the shadow. But we have a guide, and if we listen to his voice, we will make it through.

 

[JReducation]

I’m lost.