Did "today" mean today?

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An interesting point was raised in another discussion and instead of side-tracking that discussion, I decided to bring it up here for discussion.

When Jesus was dying on the cross, He promised the man on His right and “this day” the man would be with Jesus in paradise. Then on the THIRD day Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He has not yet ascended to the Father.

How could the good thief be with Jesus in paradise on Friday when on Sunday Jesus had still not yet ascended to the Father?
 
Could the thief’s Paradise have been the “paradise” of the OT prophets? Recall that folks like Moses were worthy of heaven yet had to wait for the gates of heaven to be opened. Maybe that was the paradise mentioned by Jesus (limbo of the Fathers, some have called it). I dunno…
 
By the time Mary encountered Jesus in the garden, He had already been to Sheol to liberate the souls of the faithful so they could enter Heaven - spiritually, as we all do at death (directly or through Purgatory) if we have accepted the gift of grace for which they were waiting. So the thief would have joined them.

But bodily, Jesus had not yet Ascended. Different state of being. In addition, I think there is significance in the Gospel’s terminology - He told Mary not to “cling” to Him, but to go tell the Apostles. Because later, we know, He invited Thomas to touch Him. I don’t think we can conclude that He didn’t want Mary to touch Him, only that she was not to try and remain with Him but to go and spread the good news.

As for the “today” vs the “third day” - once we die, we enter into eternity, where time is a meaningless concept. So the experience of the thief is in the immediacy that is eternity. The Resurrection appearances are in time.
 
Well said. But I don’t know that I would say that “once we die, we enter into eternity, where time is a meaningless concept.” This is because the dead are not yet united with their resurrected bodies, so in a way they are still tied to time. It’s as if they have one foot in eternity and one foot still in time.
 
Well said. But I don’t know that I would say that “once we die, we enter into eternity, where time is a meaningless concept.” This is because the dead are not yet united with their resurrected bodies, so in a way they are still tied to time. It’s as if they have one foot in eternity and one foot still in time.
ooh, nice point.
 
Paradise may have referred to the abode of the dead awaiting entrance to heaven [Abraham’s Bosom], rather than to heaven itself.
 
I believe that I should clear up the meaning of Paradise, because people get a little confused over where or what is this Paradise.

Paradise is in Heaven.

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 2:11

**Elijah was taken up in Heaven, right? But what is up there?

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. *2 Corinthians 12: 2

*So Elijah was taken up into paradise. Paradise is in Heaven. But were are men? They are in the earth when they die, according to what is written in the Bible. There is no teaching in the Bible that people go to Heaven when they die, that is Paradise. Jesus did not ascend into Paradise, or as the Bible calls it: Heaven, where the Father is. Because since He didn’t ascend to the Father, in Heaven, He didn’t do to Paradise either, since Paradise is in Heaven, and Jesus didn’t ascend to Heaven. So since He wasn’t in Paradise, how was He supposed to be in Paradise with the good thief? This is where this whole theory crumbles.
 
Paradise at this time was Abraham’s Bosom, this is also found in Rabbinical literature. When people died before Christ’s resurrection went to Abraham’s Bosom if they were righteous. Today meant TODAY. Some people corrupt the text to say “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” this is a heretical punctuation.

Here is proof Paradise refers to Abraham’s bosom…
“The Rabbis refer to the grave’s “good department” as ‘paradise’, in other words, the Garden of Eden.”—Risto Santala, On the New Testament
“By Paradise the rabbis understand the “good department” of Sheol, as Jesus too with his familiar words to the thief. In these words too we can see strongly the eternal perspective.”—Risto Santala, On Paul
In Jewish Tradition we observe the word “with me in Paradise.” Samuel says to Saul:
“Saul asked: “Can I still save myself by flight?” “Yes,” replied Samuel, “if thou fleest, thou art safe. But if thou acceptest God’s judgment, by to-morrow thou wilt be united with me in Paradise.”—Gingzberg’s Legends of the Jews
Paradise is the “descended into hell” we say in the Creed, this refers to Abraham’s Bosom. Here is one church father commenting on this passage…
we must avoid, and shun with the utmost horror, that wicked punctuation of the heretics, who, as they do not believe that Christ could be found in Paradise on the same day on which He descended into hell, thus punctuate “Verily, I say unto you today,” and making a stop apply “you shall be with Me in Paradise,” in such a way that they imagine that this promise was not fulfilled at once after he departed from this life–St John Cassian, Conference 1, Chapter 14
 
I believe that I should clear up the meaning of Paradise, because people get a little confused over where or what is this Paradise.

Paradise is in Heaven.

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up
by a whirlwind into heaven.** 2 Kings 2:11

**Elijah was taken up in Heaven, right? But what is up there?

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. *2 Corinthians 12: 2

*So Elijah was taken up into paradise. Paradise is in Heaven. But were are men? They are in the earth when they die, according to what is written in the Bible. There is no teaching in the Bible that people go to Heaven when they die, that is Paradise. Jesus did not ascend into Paradise, or as the Bible calls it: Heaven, where the Father is. Because since He didn’t ascend to the Father, in Heaven, He didn’t do to Paradise either, since Paradise is in Heaven, and Jesus didn’t ascend to Heaven. So since He wasn’t in Paradise, how was He supposed to be in Paradise with the good thief? This is where this whole theory crumbles.
2 Corinthians 12 and Revelation use paradise to refer to Heaven, but this is AFTER the resurrection, before the resurrection paradise was synonymous with where the Just await for God.

The bible says Jesus went to “Hades” and to the “prison” and the part He went to is called Paradise
 
You do realize that Saul was speaking with the devil, right?
Where are your getting thing from?[bibledrb]1 Samuel 28:8-20[/bibledrb] Note verse 16 (“Samuel said” … not “Satan in the form of Samuel said”) & 20 (“the words of Samuel” … not “the words of Satan”) – the bible clearly says that it was Samuel.
 
Where are your getting this from?

Note verse 16 (“Samuel said” … not “Satan in the form of Samuel said”) & 20 ("the words of Samuel" … not “the words of Satan”) – the bible clearly says that it was Samuel.
Many non-catholics who cannot accept the idea that God would allow the spirit of any deceased person to appear to any living person for any reason teach that the speaker in this scene must be demonic - this is an OT example of interpreting/understanding Scripture according to your pre-existing beliefs, similar to the insistence that the John 6 references to the Bread of Life actually refer to Jesus’ teachings.

It is not, of course, inconsistent to observe that God does not approve of the attempt to summon spirits but that He may still choose to allow spirits to appear to people.

The reaction of the witch when the spirit (whom she was clearly not expecting) actually appears is a wonderful dramatic moment, by the way.
 
Where are your getting thing from?1 Samuel 28:8-20Note verse 16 (“Samuel said” … not “Satan in the form of Samuel said”) & 20 ("the words of Samuel" … not “the words of Satan”) – the bible clearly says that it was Samuel.
There are a lot of reasons to consider that Saul was speaking with demons. By the way, since you are a Catholic, I believe you don’t believe in Sola Scripura, so not every truth is hidden in the Bible.

Let’s begin with the beginning. First of all, since when do humans, especially witches, have the ability to resurrect the dead and talk to them? Does God give demons that power? Remember that she was a witch, a representative of Satan. God doesn’t have witches, He has prophets. So you believe a witch, and enemy of God, has power to resurrect the dead and talk to them? I hope you don’t. God alone has the power to resurrect dead people. If demons could do that, then we wouldn’t have any reasons to stay on Gods side. One of the reasons we are with Him, is because even if we die, He can resurrect us. If demons could resurrect us, then half of our faith we have in God would be void of meaning. Don’t be deceived: only God can resurrect the dead. Jesus is the resurrection and the life, not the demons. They cannot give you life, but only death.

Another thing: Saul never saw Samuel himself. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. ~1 Samuel 28:14 Does anywhere say that Saul saw Samuel? The witch says that she sees and old man with a mantle. Then Saul deduces that that man was Samuel, but he never saw him. A demon could have easily act like him, but you’ll see that it [the demon] wasn’t very successful. Also, since Saul didn’t saw him, he acted by faith, but God tells us to put faith only in Him, but he put his in dead people. If we have faith in God we will not be deceived, but you can easily be deceived if you put your faith in a witch, because he believe what the witch said was true.

Another important thing. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. ~1 Samuel 28:13 This perhaps doesn’t has any relevance, but this ‘thing’ comes from below the earth, but generally (if not always) anything that is from God comes from above. God descended from above. Elijah and Moses descended at the Transfiguration from above (they were surrounded by clouds, cloud are in the sky: above, and not below). There are other examples as well. I thought this was interesting.

*And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. *Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? ~1 Samuel 28:15-16 This has to do with another point I made. Saul made himself and enemy of God. Do you believe that demons are the resurrection and life? Saul wasn’t with God, so he wasn’t with the resurrection and the life.

*And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. *~1 Samuel 28:1 Look at this message. There is no hope in it. God always gives us hope. When Jesus speaks with the Churches in Revelation, He always finishes His message with a message of hope. He told them what He will do to those that will overcome. Also, in the Old Testament as well. God usually said: ’ I will destroy you’ and them He mixes His warning with hope: ‘But if you repent of your bad deeds I will forgive you’. You can read Isaiah and Jeremiah. Most messages are mixed with hope. Where is the hope in this message? It just basically tells Saul that he will dies and he has no salvation. God would have given Saul hope that he could be saved. The saved are the image of God. Samuel was saved. So if God gives hope, Samuel gives as well; but we see no hope in this ‘Samuel’'s message. Do you believe this ‘Samuel’ is the image of God? I don’t. The message that Samuel or this spirit that claimed to be Samuel gave was an utterly hopeless, discouraging message; not even a shred of hope. This is not from God.

-Part 1-
 
-Part 2-

By the way, if you read the above passages: *’…and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me…’ *~1 Samuel 28:15-16 I understand about Saul’s sons, they may be saved. Samuel was saved. But Saul? He was lost. The last thing he did was suicide himself and go to a witch. Also, the Spirit abandoned him. We are sealed with the Spirit. Who doesn’t have the Spirit, is lost. Saul lost the Spirit. But yet this ‘thing’ tells Saul that they will be in the same place. Samuel, a saved, holy man, spirit-filled prophet, High Priest; and Saul, a man who went to a witch, committed suicide and abandoned God. How are these two supposed to be together? :confused: How are these two supposed to be in the same place when they die?

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. ~1 Chronicles 10:13-14 So Saul died because He sinned against God by not doing what He said: he went to a witch. Witches were commanded to be killed. Saul disobeyed. Why you think we are commanded not to talk to the dead? Because they may reveal us mysterious secrets or because we are talking with demons? Do you believe it is so hard to impersonate a dead one? I mean, they are observing you since you were born. Do you think it is hard for them to imitate you personality? Or it is so hard to imitate your appearance? When we think we are talking to the dead, we are communicating with demons. What does a Christian has to do with demons? Can someone that sits at the table of the Lord sit with the demons as well? What do we have to do with demons? Don’t be deceived friend: Saul was speak trough the witch with a demon. Note that he wasn’t speaking himself, but trough the witch. He put his faith in a witch, not in God.

So in conclusion this ‘Samuel’ or this ‘thing’ isn’t from God.
 
=Sir Knight;6416159]An interesting point was raised in another discussion and instead of side-tracking that discussion, I decided to bring it up here for discussion.
When Jesus was dying on the cross, He promised the man on His right and “this day” the man would be with Jesus in paradise. Then on the THIRD day Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He has not yet ascended to the Father.
How could the good thief be with Jesus in paradise on Friday when on Sunday Jesus had still not yet ascended to the Father?
No, an impossibility 🙂

NOT UNTIL Easter Sunday were the gates of heaven unlocked.

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
NOT UNTIL Easter Sunday were the gates of heaven unlocked.
I don’t know if this is true. Does the Catechism or other official teaching of the Church state this?

Tthe Paschal events are all really one event – passion, death, resurrection – but if we really wanted to pin down the actual part that caused the gates of heaven to open, I would think that it was the moment Christ died on the cross.

Jesus offered His life in atonement for our sins. The curtain in the Temple was torn. The devil knew he was defeated. This was the real “crux” of God’s love (pun intended).

The resurrection was the “icing” in that it showed how our new life in Heaven will have a glorified body, but the actual gates were opened on Good Friday.

Now, having said all that, I don’t know if my thoughts are official teaching, but I don’t feel like doing homework on a Friday night…😃
 
The message that Samuel or this spirit that claimed to be Samuel gave was an utterly hopeless, discouraging message; not even a shred of hope. This is not from God.

-Part 1-
I recall a certain Holy man in the New Testament telling a certain wicked man “it would be better had he never been born” and the certain Holy Man telling certain religious leaders they were sons of Satan and were going to Hell
 
Reference? Source?
The bible. 2 Cor 12, Rev 3
You know that Hades means the grave, don’t you?
Yes, but biblically it ALSO refers to that state in which the spirits wait for judgement, Luke 16 is an allegory about Hades, Acts 2 mentions Christ in Hades. Hades=Sheol. Literally hades means “unseen”
 
-Part 2-

How are these two supposed to be together? :confused: How are these two supposed to be in the same place when they die?
Read Luke 16. Hades is one place, with 2 compartments, one for the just and one for the damned.
 
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