Did "today" mean today?

[Cristian_B]

Read Luke 16. Hades is one place, with 2 compartments, one for the just and one for the damned.

Actually, Samuel said ‘…and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me’. If it really has two compartments, then they are separated. How can those two be together?

Also, you missed co comment the other arguments I presented.

 

[Cashue]

once we die, we enter into eternity, where time is a meaningless concept.

This is the correct understanding. When Jesus said, truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise, he was speaking in terms of eternity where “today” actually means “in three days”.

 

[Cristian_B]

This is the correct understanding. When Jesus said, truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise, he was speaking in terms of eternity where “today” actually means “in three days”.

No, today actually meant today.

 

[Cashue]

No, today actually meant today.

yes, exactly in terms of eternity today meant today, so that when Jesus was in paradise that same day the evil doer was with him that same day in paradise. The verse is very clear.

Thank you, I didn’t express it well but that is what I meant to say.

 

[Cristian_B]

yes, exactly in terms of eternity today meant today, so that when Jesus was in paradise that same day the evil doer was with him that same day in paradise. The verse is very clear.

Thank you, I didn’t express it well but that is what I meant to say.

Jesus didn’t go to Paradise when He died. He ascended to Paradise when He resurrected.

 

[Cashue]

Jesus didn’t go to Paradise when He died. He ascended to Paradise when He resurrected.

Yes, when Jesus said he would be in paradise today he meant today but not the today of the same day because he ascended to paradise when he was resurrected he meant “today” as in “today” but not the same day but the same day in terms of eterneity.

 

[Cristian_B]

Yes, when Jesus said he would be in paradise today he meant today but not the today of the same day because he ascended to paradise when he was resurrected he meant “today” as in “today” but not the same day but the same day in terms of eterneity.

May I know where did you got the ‘measurement’ of eternity? How do you know 1 day here equals 3 days in eternity? And today means before sunset. You actually have no proof for what you’re saying.

 

[Cashue]

May I know where did you got the ‘measurement’ of eternity? How do you know 1 day here equals 3 days in eternity? And today means before sunset. You actually have no proof for what you’re saying.

Yes, you are right. Sorry I was wrong to say that. I stand corrected. Jesus said that the evil doer would be with him that same day in paradise and what he meant was exactly that

“truely I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”

you are right, Jesus meant that the evil doer would be with him “today” meaning that same day before sunset with him in paradise.

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate your insights.

 

[Cristian_B]

Yes, you are right. Sorry I was wrong to say that. I stand corrected. Jesus said that the evil doer would be with him that same day in paradise and what he meant was exactly that

“truely I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”

you are right, Jesus meant that the evil doer would be with him “today” meaning that same day before sunset with him in paradise.

Thank you for the clarification, I appreciate your insights.

This is also wrong. Paradise is up in Heaven. Jesus didn’t ascend to the Father in Heaven.

The onyl possible explanation is that the coma should have been placed after ‘today’.

And what’s the big deal anyway? What’s wrong in believe that the coma is after ‘today’ rather than ‘before’. What wrong in believe Jesus didn’t tell the thief he was going that day to paradise, but that He was telling him that day that he will go to Paradise? I mean, what’s wrong with that?

 

[spockrates]

Jesus didn’t go to Paradise when He died. He ascended to Paradise when He resurrected.

Christian:

Fascinating opinions! I like your novel way of understanding Christ’s words.



But I want to be sure I understand you. Are you saying that when Jesus said today, He did *not *mean He would be with the man in Paradise the same day?



39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)

 

[spockrates]

Christian:

Our posts were close together (about 2 minutes apart). Did you miss my reply?

 

[Cristian_B]

Christian:

Fascinating opinions! I like your novel way of understanding Christ’s words.



But I want to be sure I understand you. Are you saying that when Jesus said today, He did *not *mean He would be with the man in Paradise the same day?

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)

Sorry I didn’t answer until know. I was looking for a post. Here it is: #128 and you should read this one as well, but it isn’t completely necessary: #7

So what do I is believe wrong? What did I say wrong in those two posts?

 

[spockrates]

Sorry I didn’t answer until know. I was looking for a post. Here it is: #128 and you should read this one as well, but it isn’t completely necessary: #7

So what do I is believe wrong? What did I say wrong in those two posts?

You know the story, but I’ll say it again. When Jesus was in the cross suffering in pain, one of the criminals that were crucified with Him said: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom”. One thing to notice is that the criminal (I believe he was a thief, so I’ll call him thief) was looking forward to Christ’s Second coming, 'when you come into Your kingdom’. That happens at the Second Coming. So the thief wasn’t talking about the moment of his death.

Also, coma’s weren’t inspired. The original text in Greek was without any punctuation. There are many cases in which we see punctuation isn’t inspired. It didn’t come from God but men added it. … As I said, in the original text in Greek there was no punctuation, so the text was something like this:

I say to you today you will be with Me in paradise

This is the wrong punctuation: “I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise” while the right one should be this one: “I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise”. Interesting what a coma could do, right?

Thank you for finding your post for me, Christian. I suppose my question is this: Why make it unclear at all? Why not say this instead?

“Today I tell you the truth–you will be with me in Paradise.”

or

“I tell you the truth–I will be with you in Paradise in a few days.”

I mean, assuming you are not a Jehovah’s Witness, but instead a Seventh Day Adventist or other Protestant, I’m sure you then agree that He was God, and being God, He was omniscient. Being omniscient, He would have known that by not placing the word today at the beginning of the sentence, many would be deceived by a misplaced comma! Why would He choose grammar He knew would confuse?



(BTW, I would not be offended if you were a Seventh Day Adventist or even a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ve had thoughtful conversations with both in my home.)

 

[spockrates]

And thank you, Christian, for making this a thought-provoking discussion!

 

[Cristian_B]

Thank you for finding your post for me, Christian. I suppose my question is this: Why make it unclear at all? Why not say this instead?"Today I tell you the truth–you will be with me in Paradise."or"I tell you the truth–I will be with you in Paradise in a few days."I mean, assuming you are not a Jehovah’s Witness, but instead a Seventh Day Adventist or other Protestant, I’m sure you then agree that He was God, and being God, He was omniscient. Being omniscient, He would have known that by not placing the word today at the beginning of the sentence, many would be deceived by a misplaced comma! Why would He choose grammar He knew would confuse?



(BTW, I would not be offended if you were a Seventh Day Adventist or even a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ve had thoughtful conversations with both in my home.)

Actually, this is what amazes me about God.*Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
**How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

*~Romans 11:33
How wonderful are the ways and plans of the Lord Almighty, aren’t they? Are you familiar with the feeling you get when you discover something new about God or His plans? Isn’t that a wonderful feeling? What would it be like if God would just tell us everything crystal clear? If He would have told it to us that way, then where is the excitement? I, for one, love the feeling of discovering something know about His Truth. This is the reason I begin to hate most seminars … it is because I mostly want to discover them by myself, but when they tell it to me, the ‘magic’ disappears. It is true that if the preacher is good (referring to the way he talks) then you still have part of that ‘excitement’, but I still want to wonder at the Lord’s plans when He reveals them to me directly. I’m not saying preachers are bad, or that we should study all alone by ourselves, but it’s just that the feeling when you discover something by yourself (with the help of the Spirit, of course) is so great! If you are familiar with that feeling, you know what I’m talking about.

Also, if we love God, we would naturally try to find more about Himself. And Him hiding His truth momentarily from us is a big act of love, because He gives us the change to get that ‘feeling’. Also, just as Solomon said: It is the glory of God to hide a thing … (Proverbs 25:2) and if I may complete it: ‘… and then reveal it to us’.

Also, by hiding parts of His truth God separates true believers from false Christians, because the true Christians will seek to find more about God and all His truth, that is: eve the hidden one. Because it is natural for a women to be interested by her husband, and to try to find more about him, or isn’t it natural? Also, it is a wonderful experience to know your husband step by step, rather than him giving you a letter with all the details about him. That would just take away all the fun.

So Jesus didn’t clarify it because He wants us to investigate and search His Truth. Of course, God did make the truth clear in very relevant matters (like such regarding salvation) but there are other ‘smaller’ truths that He hid and gave us the opportunity to discover it.

Remember that Paul is amazed by the wisdom of God, because '…God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all’ (Romans 11:32)*.*That way the whole world can fell the goodness of God. In the same way, God hid or made unclear certain truths so we can have the chance at opportunity to discover them filled with joy.

But you can also see this case as a ‘test’, to see whether we would investigate His Truth, or not; whether we would be interested or not.

And I’m a Seventh Day Adventist, or at least I think so. Because since I believe what they believe, that would make me one, right?

 

[spockrates]

Actually, this is what amazes me about God.*Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
**How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

*~Romans 11:33
How wonderful are the ways and plans of the Lord Almighty, aren’t they? Are you familiar with the feeling you get when you discover something new about God or His plans? Isn’t that a wonderful feeling? What would it be like if God would just tell us everything crystal clear? If He would have told it to us that way, then where is the excitement? I, for one, love the feeling of discovering something know about His Truth. This is the reason I begin to hate most seminars … it is because I mostly want to discover them by myself, but when they tell it to me, the ‘magic’ disappears. It is true that if the preacher is good (referring to the way he talks) then you still have part of that ‘excitement’, but I still want to wonder at the Lord’s plans when He reveals them to me directly. I’m not saying preachers are bad, or that we should study all alone by ourselves, but it’s just that the feeling when you discover something by yourself (with the help of the Spirit, of course) is so great! If you are familiar with that feeling, you know what I’m talking about.

Also, if we love God, we would naturally try to find more about Himself. And Him hiding His truth momentarily from us is a big act of love, because He gives us the change to get that ‘feeling’. Also, just as Solomon said: It is the glory of God to hide a thing … (Proverbs 25:2) and if I may complete it: ‘… and then reveal it to us’.

Also, by hiding parts of His truth God separates true believers from false Christians, because the true Christians will seek to find more about God and all His truth, that is: eve the hidden one. Because it is natural for a women to be interested by her husband, and to try to find more about him, or isn’t it natural? Also, it is a wonderful experience to know your husband step by step, rather than him giving you a letter with all the details about him. That would just take away all the fun.

So Jesus didn’t clarify it because He wants us to investigate and search His Truth. Of course, God did make the truth clear in very relevant matters (like such regarding salvation) but there are other ‘smaller’ truths that He hid and gave us the opportunity to discover it.

Remember that Paul is amazed by the wisdom of God, because '…God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all’ (Romans 11:32)*.*That way the whole world can fell the goodness of God. In the same way, God hid or made unclear certain truths so we can have the chance at opportunity to discover them filled with joy.

But you can also see this case as a ‘test’, to see whether we would investigate His Truth, or not; whether we would be interested or not.

And I’m a Seventh Day Adventist, or at least I think so. Because since I believe what they believe, that would make me one, right?

Yes, I completely agree that seeking Him is part of the zest of life.



And I suppose Isaiah would agree with you that God hides the truth from those who do not seek it.

Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.

(Isaiah 45:15)

As a pastor once taught me, there is little I can know about God unless He reveals it to me.

So please tell me, Cristian, how do you know that the truth God revealed to you is that Jesus was not saying this?

“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)

but was instead saying this?

“I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)

 

[Cristian_B]

Yes, I completely agree that seeking Him is part of the zest of life.



And I suppose Isaiah would agree with you that God hides the truth from those who do not seek it.
Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.

(Isaiah 45:15)As a pastor once taught me, there is little I can know about God unless He reveals it to me.

So please tell me, Cristian, how do you know that the truth God revealed to you is that Jesus was not saying this?“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)but was instead saying this?“I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 22)

I believe you are familiar with my beliefs, but, just in case.

As you see, it is written:Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father

~John 20:17
So, according to Jesus’ own words, He did not ascend to the Father yet, and if you read post #7 then you’ll see that Paradise is in Heaven. If Jesus did not ascend to the Father, He did not ascend to Heaven, because the Father is in Heaven. If He did not ascend to Heaven, He cannot be in Paradise, because Paradise is in Heaven. Therefore, Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. So, in conclusion, the only option left is that Jesus wasn’t telling the thief he will go to Paradise on that day, but obviously another day, which I believe is the day of the Lord’s second coming, that is: at the resurrection of the righteous. So, logically, since punctuation is not inspired, the only possibility is that the coma is actually after the word ‘today’ and not before.

Is this explanation satisfactory?

 

[tonyg]

Jesus’ body was laid in the tomb; But the moment he breathed his last breath and said, "“it is finished,” his soul was with the Father. So my personal opinion is that he kept his words of mercy and took his soul to heaven with him that day.

 

[Cristian_B]

Jesus’ body was laid in the tomb; But the moment he breathed his last breath and said, "“it is finished,” his soul was with the Father. So my personal opinion is that he kept his words of mercy and took his soul to heaven with him that day.

Do you refer to the following passage?And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, * ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.*’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

~Luke 23:46 NKJV

 

[spockrates]

I believe you are familiar with my beliefs, but, just in case.

As you see, it is written:Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father

~John 20:17
So, according to Jesus’ own words, He did not ascend to the Father yet, and if you read post #7 then you’ll see that Paradise is in Heaven. If Jesus did not ascend to the Father, He did not ascend to Heaven, because the Father is in Heaven. If He did not ascend to Heaven, He cannot be in Paradise, because Paradise is in Heaven. Therefore, Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. So, in conclusion, the only option left is that Jesus wasn’t telling the thief he will go to Paradise on that day, but obviously another day, which I believe is the day of the Lord’s second coming, that is: at the resurrection of the righteous. So, logically, since punctuation is not inspired, the only possibility is that the coma is actually after the word ‘today’ and not before.

Is this explanation satisfactory?

Yes, Cristian perhaps I am familiar. For I was a Protestant much longer than I have been a Catholic. (I joke with Catholics that I’ve forgotten more about Protestant beliefs than they will ever know!)



Please let me ask you these two questions related to the words of our Lord and Savior that you quoted:

1. 
   *]Do you believe that Jesus is now, and always was, both the Son of God and a son of a woman?
   *]Do you believe the Son of God is now, and always was, omnipresent (or everywhere there)?