Difference between "atheistic evolution" and "christian evolution?"

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Second, the New Testament is full of parables. It was one of the preferred methods of teaching of Jesus. What makes us think that some of the stories of the Old Testament aren’t parables?
Well for one thing, when Jesus spoke in parables, it usually stated, he was speaking in parables. I do not see God indicating to us in Genesis that this is a parable.
Third, why doesn’t God create man through evolution? He began creation. Maybe this was the method he chose to create man. The idea is not incompatible.
The idea is not incompatable with man’s traditions, but it is definitely incompatable with God’s Word. Please read his Word. I am not making this stuff up. Genesis 1 and 2.
Four, beyond everything, the importance of the story of the flood is that even if God were to destroy all evil people on Earth, more would eventually arise because of free will. It is an important lesson for all mankind.
I do not know if you think Noah and the flood is just another a fable or not, for me this is a true story. But the lesson is this is not that more evil will rise up, it is the grace, mercy and love God has for man who fear the Lord.
Still, we are free to interpret that how we wish too. That is, after all, the role of the Catholic Church. Catholicism is far more than Sola Scriptura.
Here we reach an agreement, that we are all free to interpret the Scriptures how we wish. And I also agree that Catholicism is far more than Sola Scriptura. But the role to study and pursue truth is for Christs Church.
Five, Jesus must be acknowledged as the Son of God because this is an infallible teaching of the Church. This point has actually been defined.
Jesus must be acknowledged as the Son of God because God said so and His teaching in infallible.
Six, if you were to explain the Big Bang and evolution to someone 4000 years ago, how would you do it?
I would teach the truth which is God’s Word.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
simbag << It has people who call themselves Christians saying to the rest of the world that the Bible, God’s Word, is false. It is stating that even though God says in Genesis 1 he created the world in 6 days, he really didn’t. >>

Oh I’m not done with you yet. 😃 I’m gonna sic Cardinal Schonborn on you. Not sure if you’re Catholic, maybe not, but here is what a leading Cardinal in the Catholic Church says on your brand of “creationism” :

"Now there is another misunderstanding that is constantly found in the ongoing discussion, and I have to deal with it right here at the beginning. I refer to what is called ‘creationism.’ Nowadays the belief in a creator is automatically run together with ‘creationism.’ But in fact to believe in a creator is not the same as trying to understand the six days of creation literally, as six chronological days, and as trying to prove scientifically, with whatever means available, that the earth is 6000 years old. These attempts of certain Christians at taking the Bible absolutely literally, as if it made chronological and scientific statements – I have met defenders of this position who honestly strive to find scientific arguments for it – is called ‘fundamentalism.’ Or more exactly, within American Protestantism this view of the Christian faith originally called itself fundamentalism. Starting from the belief that the Bible is inspired by God, so that every word in it is immediately inspired by Him, the six days of creation are taken in a strict literal way. It is understandable that in the United States many people, using not only kinds of polemics but lawsuits as well, vehemently resist the teaching of creationism in the schools…

“The Catholic position on this is clear. St. Thomas says that ‘one should not try to defend the Christian faith with arguments that are so patently opposed to reason that the faith is made to look ridiculous.’ It is simply nonsense to say that the world is only 6000 years old. To try to prove this scientifically is what St. Thomas calls provoking the irrisio infidelium, the scorn of the unbelievers. It is not right to use such false arguments and to expose the faith to the scorn of unbelievers. This should suffice on the subject of ‘creationism’ and ‘fundamentalism’ for the entire remainder of this catechesis; what we want to say about it should be so clear that we do not have to return to the subject.”

Christoph Cardinal Schonborn, Catechetical Lecture for 11/13/2005

So what do you think the Cardinal means? :rolleyes:

Phil P
I think the Cardinal means that he does not believe Genesis 1 and 2 is true. My question would be what part of Genesis does he consider truth? And why those are true and others are not. Not being sarcastic, I would really be interested in knowing this Chapter by Chapter.

The verse that comes to mind is
2Timothy 3:16 -17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
 
Intelligent Design is by no means new on the scientific scene. Issac Newton said several centuries ago:

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” Optics, Laws of Motion, Gravitation
**
For some scientists there is no God. That is a purely personal and philosophical conviction for which their reason may be any one of a hundred. But they feel the need to prop up their personal philosophy with some kind of scientific foundation because by conviction they really cannot believe in anything unless it has a scientific basis. Yet atheism has no scientific basis. Evolution does. And so they make that giant leap from evolution to atheism without the slightest blush. Shame on them. As Chesterton put it, no one would use the law of gravity as an excuse for knocking people down.

Then why use the theory of evolution as an excuse for knocking God down?
 
There is more evidence for evolution probably then any other single idea in science.
Evidence itself is open to interpretation. One can use the same evidence to make fit to several mutually exclusive theories.
A long long time ago (1986)*, I did a course at university called ‘Pre-history’ at the Australian National University. Our textbook was

Poirier, F E, “In Search of Ourselves: An Introduction to Physical Anthropology”, (to which I will be referring specifically to p346ff).

My textbook stated that each of the following;

the Unilinear School;

the Polyphyletic School’

the Preneanderthal School; and

the Presapiens School

were all valid possibilities to the pathway our ancestors took. All were based on the evidence available - the same evidence. All were mutually exclusive, in that if we’d evolved along one model, we’d not have gone along the others.

All these theories have now gone the way of the dinosaurs, and two new, mutually exclusive models have emerged; the “Out-of-Africa” model, and the multi-regional model.
Not only, as you said, does it elegently fit all available evidence, which is part of what makes a scientific idea a good one, but it’s been good at predicting future discoveries as well. For example, common decent predicts a so called ‘tree of life’ which we see confirmed from a variety a angles; morphological (appearence and structure of animals), biochemical, genetic, geographic; all which indicate the same tree of life.
Which might have happened due to directed evolution.
For example, almost all the marsupials are limited to Australia.
This is a rather strange example to make use of, because it still has exceptions such as one in North America.
We have also found transition fossils,
Transitional fossils are often highly contentious too.
In 1870 a Darwinist named Hyatt worked on specimens of ammonites and arranged them Aegoceras (oldest)-Androgynoceras-Liparoceras (youngest)

In 1938 L F Spath looking at the same evidence arranged them Liparoceras (oldest)-Androgynoceras-Aegoceras (youngest)

In 1963 Blockely said that they were all a variation of Androgynoceras, and the range was explained by sexual dimorphism.

All of which Richard Milton says “It is a prime illustration of the infinite elasticity of Darwinian theory: of its ability to interpret the data in any one of a number of completely different ways - even with diametrically opposed conclusions - as long as those ways are consistent with the central belief in Darwinian evolution itself.”

in “Shattering the Myths of Darwinism”, p113 by Richard Milton
and animals also sometimes have vestigial characteristics, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.
The idea that they are useless is also flawed. Within humans, for e.g. there was, at the beginning of the 1900s, deemed to be dozens of these things, but over time we have found use for many, thus the tonsils are found to help fight infection. The idea that because we don’t know what something for equals we know it’s not for anything is plainly wrong.
Also atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism’s immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms’ evolutionary histories.
Such as?
“There are, for instance, more than 800 species of frogs, all of which look superficially the same. But there is a greater variation of molecular structure between them than there is between the bat and the blue whale”

Milton, R, “Shattering the Myths of Darwinism”, p184
The list goes on and on, and all of this data is confirmed acrossed many different fields of science.
None of this explains the difference between a directed evolution and an non-directed one as per the OP.
 
No, it doesn’t. “Athiestic” evolution, what ever that is, doesn’t deal with God at all.Intelligent design only proves that some people will go to any length to get creationism into the classroom.Not true at all.
Science has a long history of searching for ‘intellgience’.

The science of cryptography looks for meaning amongst jumbles of letters/numbers etc.

Forensic science looks at a body and determines if someone died naturally, or if there was an intelligence behind the death.

SETI (aka CETI) looks for intelligent radio signals amongst the cosmic noise.👍
 
hmm… not quite as it is much easier to prove something in mathematics than in science. Mathematics is deductive; science is empirical.
Maths is a science, as well as a tool of science

Just as English is both a subject of humanties, and a tool of humanities (and other subjects)

Your ideas on science are further flawed by the many sciences that are purely hypothetical.

My favourite being exobiology which goes so far (in some circles) as to suppose what type of society we are most likely to contact first. They believe it will be a Type-II or Type-III society. As far back as the 1970s they’ve been doing this.

“At this point, I think it is necessary for us to introduce or to clarify a distinction between primary-evolved civilizations and diffused civilizations…in the future evolution of our contacts, we should think about the sociology of CETI and by this I mean the social structure of the communication between technical civilizations. We have emphasized the energy aspects of Type II and Type III civilizations…”
Sagan, C, (Ed.) “Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence: CETI”, 1973, MIT Press pp170-171
 
I asked this in another post, but I think it deserves a new thread.

What are the specific differences between “atheistic evolution” and “Christian evolutioin?” I think one would be Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection. That there is no guiding design, that there are random changes to DNA, and that the species unfit for their environment just die off. And so what are some other main differences? Do Christians provide any alternative explanations for how change is introduced in generations? And is there any actual evidense for rejecting Darwinian Evolution other than the reason that it is just incompatable with the faith?

Thanks.
In my opinion, Hubriss, the philosophical causes of evolutionary processes is what is being debated between the two groups. Is life
an accident or has it been purposefully designed by a creator?
I believe that science, as a tool, can be used to illuminate or strengthen the theory of either one. As a creationist myself, I personally believe the evolutionary processes were not accidental in nature. A scientific interest could be found, for example, in the direction of specific genes (Hox) responsible for controlling other genes during the development of an embryo. I say this because I personally believe that evolution is the purposefull, controlled development of life as a whole,just as an embryo purposefully develops into an adult human being through controlled processes.

Andre
 
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Orogeny:
No, it doesn’t. “Athiestic” evolution, what ever that is, doesn’t deal with God at all.
Well if you don’t know what it is, it’s hard to debate eh? I’d suggest that it means evolution with an atheistic bias.
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Orogeny:
Steadfast love:
Int. Design scientificaly “proves” that there is a God. Both are wrong because evolution is not science nor can it make scientific claims.
Intelligent design only proves that some people will go to any length to get creationism into the classroom.
I put quotes around “proves” to show that it’s not my claim, it’s a claim that the Intelligent design folks make about what their “science” can “prove.”
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Orogeny:
"Steadfast love:
Science is science if and only if you can repeat experiments on it. But by definition history only happens once. History is not science. Pretending otherwise is nothing more than retrodiction.
Not true at all.
Tim, how many times does history happen? Only once. Now I’ll grant you there is no shortage of books describing what would have happened differently if some key moment in history had gone differently, but they’re all fiction. (Most of them deal with WWII and how things would have turned out if Hitler was not quite his actual historical self.) My point remains that atheistic and intelligent brands of evolution fall into the same genre – science fiction.
 
Atheist evolution scientifically “proves” that there is no God.
Atheistic evolution is not about proving or disproving the existence of God.
Int. Design scientifically “proves” that there is a God.
That is false too. There’s many who believe in God, but ID-theorists are about finding ‘design’, not determining who is the designer. For instance super-intelligent aliens might be involved.
Both are wrong because evolution is not science nor can it make scientific claims. Evolution is only history, so it can only make historical claims to truth.
Evolution follows one of the scientific methods and is therefore considered science.
Science is science if and only if you can repeat experiments on it.
This is not true. Science also has ‘theoretical science’ which has no form of experiment.

There are areas of science that offer no predictions too. There’s many shades of science. In maths Turing’s Stopping Machine experiments offer only experiment, not prediction - other than one can’t predict the outcome until the experiment has taken place. Further, you can repeat experiment and be continually wrong, without realising it…Take for example, you’re working in a lab, and you want to describe a newly discovered bacteria. You look into the microscope, you see the little bugs moving around in an ‘agitated’ manner. You publish your findings. Months later other labs around the world read your work. There is some doubt. Other scientists have samples of the bug. Each conducts their own observations under similar conditions, and lo! they agree with your description. Your paper then enters the main-stream of thought as a ‘truth’ concerning an aspect of this bug.

BUT WAIT… it’s not as simple as that. To observe the bacteria, you used a microscope. You used light shining up on a little mirror so you could see the bugs. The bugs may have reacted to the unwanted concentration of light. What you described as how they acted, was only how they acted while you were observing them!

(a paraphrasing of an example from “Chaos” by Gleick)
Pretending otherwise is nothing more than retrodiction.
What’s retrodiction?
 
Atheistic evolution is not about proving or disproving the existence of God.
So what’s the different between Atheistic evolution and regular evolution? I took it to mean that atheistic evolution is regular evolution with an atheist’s bias.
That is false too. There’s many who believe in God, but ID-theorists are about finding ‘design’, not determining who is the designer. For instance super-intelligent aliens might be involved.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve only seen the god like alien angle played as a diversionary tactic to avoid getting laughed out of the courtroom and/or an excuse for noodly satire. I didn’t realize it was a genuinely held theory.

You lost me on Turing’s stopping machine. The systematic error in measuring bacteria with powerful light are interesting, but not tangent to what I was attempting to describe. I’m not talking about systematic error as much as an error of philosophy. I’ll get back to that but first…
What’s retrodiction?
“oed” said:
retro’diction
[f. RETRO- + DICTION, after PREDICTION n.]
The explanation or interpretation of past actions or events inferred from the laws that are assumed to have governed them. Cf. POSTDICTION.
Hence (as a back-formation) retrodict v. trans. and absol., to infer by retrodiction (cf. POSTDICT v.); retrodicting vbl. n. Also retrodictable, retrodictive adjs., retrodictively adv.

The classic example of Retrodiction is: You have a US dollar in your wallet with a unique serial number. The odds of picking that serial number from the 29,999,999,700 possible serial numbers are very very small. Retrodiction leads to the two false conclusions.
  1. By retrodiction, some supernatural agent must be responsible for you having the dollar with that miraculously improbable serial number.
  2. By retrodiction, your dollar bill probably does not exist. The odds against it are thirty billion to one.
The falacy of Retrodiction is pretending that the odds that something that happened happened is equal to the odds of that something happening in general. In other words, Retrodiction says you should bet on last weeks game because even if your team already lost, the odds are good that your team will win the game they lost.

The correct view is to realize that once something happens, it’s done. E.g. the odds that the losing team lost is 100% since that team already lost.

The crux of the issue for me as a statistician is, even if we had perfect knowledge of evolutionary history as imagined by either the atheists or the id folks we still wouldn’t know one way or the other. If the odds against us happening the way we did are slim, then the atheists will say it’s just a lucky break and the ID will say it’s proof of a miracle. If the odds are stacked in our favor of our existance, then the atheists will say it it proves that there’s no god and the ID will say it shows the robustness of God’s plan.

The philosophical error I aluded to earlier is pretending that knowing history will let us know God. Can we, for example, prove (or disprove) the existance of God by any other historical event? I think we can come to our own conclusions, but I don’t think that any historical event will LOGICALY FORCE either side to capitulate.
 
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Montalban:
Atheistic evolution is not about proving or disproving the existence of God.
Steadfast love:
So what’s the different between Atheistic evolution and regular evolution? I took it to mean that atheistic evolution is regular evolution with an atheist’s bias.
See
Q: Do you have to be an atheist to accept evolution?
No. Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the scientific explanation for biodiversity. See the God and Evolution FAQ and the Interpretations of Genesis FAQ.
talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Thus for them the Godless nature of evolution doesn’t exclude God, per se from belief.

This is, by the way, deemed to be the ‘regular form’ of evolution. They deem any form of evolution involving non-material forces to be mere quackery.
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Montalban:
Quote:That is false too. There’s many who believe in God, but ID-theorists are about finding ‘design’, not determining who is the designer. For instance super-intelligent aliens might be involved.
Steadfast love:
Thanks for the tip. I’ve only seen the god like alien angle played as a diversionary tactic to avoid getting laughed out of the courtroom and/or an excuse for noodly satire. I didn’t realize it was a genuinely held theory.
Even some evolutionists believe in aliens. Look at “Directed Panspermia” (championed by Nobel winner Francis Crick)
Steadfast love:
You lost me on Turing’s stopping machine.
It’s an experiment in which one can only know the outcome by performing the experiment. It’s unlike, for instance someone saying “I wonder what would happen if I put this wood in a fire; I suppose it might burn” and then doing so. In that case the person can make a ‘prediction’ before hand and see if the experiment confirms the prediction. In the case of Turing’s stopping machine no such prediction can be made; excepting that a prediction can’t be made.
Steadfast love:
The systematic error in measuring bacteria with powerful light are interesting, but not tangent to what I was attempting to describe. I’m not talking about systematic error as much as an error of philosophy. I’ll get back to that but first.
The point is, one doesn’t know it’s a ‘systematic error’ until later. One can perform the experiment, it can be repeated, and the results the same; confirming the first observations in the first experiment.
Steadfast love:
The philosophical error I alluded to earlier is pretending that knowing history will let us know God. Can we, for example, prove (or disprove) the existence of God by any other historical event? I think we can come to our own conclusions, but I don’t think that any historical event will LOGICALLY FORCE either side to capitulate.
What’s this got to do with anything?
 
See
Q: Do you have to be an atheist to accept evolution?
No. Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the scientific explanation for biodiversity. See the God and Evolution FAQ and the Interpretations of Genesis FAQ.
talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Even some evolutionists believe in aliens. Look at “Directed Panspermia” (championed by Nobel winner Francis Crick)
Nope, it was simply a speculative hypothesis for Crick, I don’t think he actually believed in it.
 
Nope, it was simply a speculative hypothesis for Crick, I don’t think he actually believed in it.
Many do, even if he doesn’t. However this is what I do know about Crick

Crick first proposed it with chemist Leslie Orgel in 1973 in an article entitled “Directed Panspermia” in a professional science journal called Icarus. A decade later Crick wrote a book, Life Itself, reiterating the theory; in a 1992 interview in Scientific American on the eve of the publication of his latest book, Crick reaffirmed that he things the theory is reasonable."
Behe, M, “Darwin’s Black Box”, p238
 
When it comes to the creation/evolution debate, everyone has their preferred area. Some like the geology side of things, some like the biology or zoology part, and some like the biblical things. Creation can be proven in a variety of ways, but its not worth the time to try to ‘biologically’ prove that creation is the truth when the person is interested in the astronomy side.
Why do you think I am bringing astronomy up. Astronomy is what convinced me of evolution. I can seee the holes in all the biological theories to the point where it is at least plausable that maybe creationism is remotely possible. However, I just don’t see how you can refute the speed of light. Therefore, evolution had to occurr since the molecues within us all come from stardust and the big bang anyways. If you can explain to me how the speed of light somehow can go 14 billion miles away in only a few thousand years or perhaps why we can only see 14 billioon years out and nothing more or maybe why we can actually see back in time the creations of galxies and stars the further we go out in the universe. Explain this to me? This is the most concrete evidence I can think of for evolution or at least that the universe is a lot older than creationists believe.
 
Why do you think I am bringing astronomy up. Astronomy is what convinced me of evolution. I can seee the holes in all the biological theories to the point where it is at least plausable that maybe creationism is remotely possible. However, I just don’t see how you can refute the speed of light. Therefore, evolution had to occurr since the molecues within us all come from stardust and the big bang anyways. If you can explain to me how the speed of light somehow can go 14 billion miles away in only a few thousand years or perhaps why we can only see 14 billioon years out and nothing more or maybe why we can actually see back in time the creations of galxies and stars the further we go out in the universe. Explain this to me? This is the most concrete evidence I can think of for evolution or at least that the universe is a lot older than creationists believe.
Couldn’t God have created things as they are?
 
Upon reading further into your comment I can see how it is possible to a certain extent. I don’t deny the possibility that there was an evolution and creation of the universe over 14 billion years and somewhere along that line God created man separate from everything else with Adam and Eve. Even if I believe in evolution I think there was a specific time period when the first humans were created by God or granted an immortal soul. Anything is possible in that reagard. I don’t deny possibilities of what might have happened on Earth. I only don’t see how one can refute the astronomy and claim that the universe was created shortly ago or that life did not originate from God creating the processes of the stars and the Big Bang
 
Upon reading further into your comment I can see how it is possible to a certain extent. I don’t deny the possibility that there was an evolution and creation of the universe over 14 billion years and somewhere along that line God created man separate from everything else with Adam and Eve. Even if I believe in evolution I think there was a specific time period when the first humans were created by God or granted an immortal soul. Anything is possible in that reagard. I don’t deny possibilities of what might have happened on Earth. I only don’t see how one can refute the astronomy and claim that the universe was created shortly ago or that life did not originate from God creating the processes of the stars and the Big Bang
The idea of special creation is opposed by Darwinism
 
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