Difference Between Eastern Churches on Papal Authority and Anglican Churches

[Peter_J]

Remember: there is NOTHING between you and us.

We get statements like this every once in a while. See also Catholics and Anglicans 99% the same.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I just love it when Latins tell us what we believe. While at the same time demeaningly calling us “Constantinople People”.

That could just as easily apply to us ever-bothersome and problematic EC’s …

 

[ByzCathCantor]

If the average Roman Catholic is not willing to face the facts we will never get past these problems and share communion. I think the present Pope understands the problems and their seriousness, but a great many RC laypersons do not.

I would love to ask you to elaborate, but this thread is supposed to be about the differences between Eastern Christian and Anglican views on Papal Authority.

Perhaps another time and within another thread, as I for one would truly be interested in your views.

 

[Hesychios]

I would love to ask you to elaborate, but this thread is supposed to be about the differences between Eastern Christian and Anglican views on Papal Authority.

Perhaps another time and within another thread, as I for one would truly be interested in your views.

No need, I already have stated the facts and provided links and references here and elsewhere. My comment was really about naïveté.

One can paper over a crack, but it will still be a crack and a flaw whether one can see it or not.

 

[Peter_J]

If the average Roman Catholic is not willing to face the facts we will never get past these problems and share communion. I think the present Pope understands the problems and their seriousness, but a great many RC laypersons do not.

I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.

How common this phenomenon is is another question. Hesychios seems to regard it as quite common, but I’m slightly skeptical about that.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.

How common this phenomenon is is another question. Hesychios seems to regard it as quite common, but I’m slightly skeptical about that.

I think most Catholics recognize it isn’t true.
But the ones who think it is true come about frequently enough, and are usually obnoxious enough about it that it gets tiring quick.

 

[Peter_J]

I think most Catholics recognize it isn’t true.

Also, I was just thinking: you have to figure that many people (Catholic or otherwise) will read something like “There are no obstacles between Orthodox and Catholics” and trust that it is true, simply because they don’t (yet) have any reason to think otherwise.

 

[Nine_Two]

Also, I was just thinking: you have to figure that many people (Catholic or otherwise) will read something like “There are no obstacles between Orthodox and Catholics” and trust that it is true, simply because they don’t (yet) have any reason to think otherwise.

Well the fact that we aren’t in communion should be evidence of an obstacle, but they may very well reason that.

 

[mardukm]

I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.

There’s a difference between
(1) unity based on common ground and understanding.
(2) unity based on giving up portions of your Traditional Faith (uniatism).
(3) unity based on indifferentism.

Those who oppose ecumenism think that it always means (2) or (3). The Catholic Church officially, and those Orthodox who accept ecumenism, approach it via the first method.

Do you find anything wrong with the first method?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.

I quite agree.

Those who oppose ecumenism think that it always means (2) or (3). The Catholic Church officially, and those Orthodox who accept ecumenism, approach it via the first method.

Do you find anything wrong with the first method?

I think you’ve misunderstood my earlier post. What I meant is that there are some Catholics out there who think (and pontificate to the rest of us) that Orthodox beliefs are the same as Catholic beliefs.

 

[Big_Chris]

What I meant is that there are some Catholics out there who think (and pontificate to the rest of us) that Orthodox beliefs are the same as Catholic beliefs.

e.g…, from the What is Eastern Catholicism? thread:

Originally, there was only one denomination… the Catholic Church (the word Catholic meaning “universal”). However, there were five cities that early on were singled out as being important centers of Christianity. They were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and of course, Rome. Each developed its own unique traditions and liturgy, but ALL shared a common theology and were in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope. However, about 1000 years ago, due to a variety of unfortunate problems, the other four cities, allied with the Byzantine Empire, mutually broke off from Rome, forming the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Although doctrinally, they are virtually identical to Catholics, they refuse to acknowledge that the pope is more than a “first among equals”. (A couple groups broke of much earlier in the 400s AD also, to form what are known as the Oriental Orthodox Churches).

 

[mardukm]

I think you’ve misunderstood my earlier post. What I meant is that there are some Catholics out there who think (and pontificate to the rest of us) that Orthodox beliefs are the same as Catholic beliefs.

From my understanding, the beliefs are not the same, but rather the Faith. The term “Faith” has an objective quality to it that the term “belief” does not carry - the term “belief” really denotes a subjective reality.

Our theologies are different. Theology is the human effort at expressing the one, divine Faith. Our beliefs are attached to the theology first and foremost, so it is natural that our beliefs would not be the same, because we express and understand things differently (according to the different theologies). The goal of ecumenism is to find the common ground of objective Faith, and to understand what our different subjective theologies (i.e. human expressions) are actually teaching about that objective Faith.

When we have achieved that purpose, unity will be achieved.

Granted, I also believe there are certain currents in modern EO’xy that seem to be incompatible with Catholicism (particularly with regards to filioque and ecclesiology). Fortunately, these currents are not completely representative of Eastern Orthodoxy, so there is still hope. Would you agree with this last sentence?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Peter_J]

We get statements like this every once in a while. See also Catholics and Anglicans 99% the same.

e.g…, from the What is Eastern Catholicism? thread:

Both good examples.

 

[Peter_J]

Granted, I also believe there are certain currents in modern EO’xy that seem to be incompatible with Catholicism (particularly with regards to filioque and ecclesiology).

Clearly, one the central questions is whether the Orthodox really believe what they say they believe. I don’t really have time to treat this question thoroughly right now, but perhaps someone else will.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Peter,

Clearly, one the central questions is whether the Orthodox really believe what they say they believe. I don’t really have time to treat this question thoroughly right now, but perhaps someone else will.

I would not doubt the sincerity of what the Orthodox believe. All I am saying is that there are different currents of belief in Orthodoxy - i.e., there is a segment that believes the Catholic Church is in heresy, and there is another segment that either do not believe so, or are willing and able to hold off judgment.

The former are the more boisterous, it seems.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[dcointin]

Dear brother Peter,

I would not doubt the sincerity of what the Orthodox believe. All I am saying is that there are different currents of belief in Orthodoxy - i.e., there is a segment that believes the Catholic Church is in heresy, and there is another segment that either do not believe so, or are willing and able to hold off judgment.

The former are the more boisterous, it seems.

Blessings,
Marduk

It seems to be the case with any religious group that the more traditionalist they are, the more negative they view others. For example, if you were to go to the Traditional Catholicism forum here and ask their opinion of Orthodoxy, it would probably be much more negative that what you would see here. The current you spoke of in Orthodoxy is likewise the traditionalist ones. Unfortunately it seems quite popular with converts to adopt these attitudes.

 

[mardukm]

It seems to be the case with any religious group that the more traditionalist they are, the more negative they view others. For example, if you were to go to the Traditional Catholicism forum here and ask their opinion of Orthodoxy, it would probably be much more negative that what you would see here. The current you spoke of in Orthodoxy is likewise the traditionalist ones. Unfortunately it seems quite popular with converts to adopt these attitudes.

Agreed. Which is why I don’t enter the TCF unless a particular current topic on the main Forums page catches my eye.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Peter_J]

It seems to be the case with any religious group that the more traditionalist they are, the more negative they view others.

Agreed, but the thing is, do Orthodox believe what they say they believe? Just consider: Orthodox say that they don’t believe in Papal Supremacy (universal ordinary jurisdiction), the Immaculate Conception etc, but a non-Orthodox (an RC if recall correctly) on this forum said “doctrinally, they [Orthodox] are virtually identical to Catholics” (see the quote that Big Chris provided).

 

[Nine_Two]

Agreed, but the thing is, do Orthodox believe what they say they believe? Just consider: Orthodox say that they don’t believe in Papal Supremacy (universal ordinary jurisdiction), the Immaculate Conception etc, but a non-Orthodox (an RC if recall correctly) on this forum said “doctrinally, they [Orthodox] are virtually identical to Catholics” (see the quote that Big Chris provided).

I have from time to time come across Orthodox sources which will state we believe something just to avoid saying we are in agreement with, or anywhere close to the Catholic Church on something when it can be demonstrated otherwise, but in this specific case, we believe what has been stated by Orthodox posters, and not what has been posted by that individual Catholic.

Believe what the Orthodox say about themselves before you believe anything a Catholic (Eastern or otherwise) says, unless you have some good, hard to misinterprete proof, that shows otherwise.

 

[Art321]

It seems to be the case with any religious group that the more traditionalist they are, the more negative they view others. For example, if you were to go to the Traditional Catholicism forum here and ask their opinion of Orthodoxy, it would probably be much more negative that what you would see here. The current you spoke of in Orthodoxy is likewise the traditionalist ones. Unfortunately it seems quite popular with converts to adopt these attitudes.

I actually disagree although I will admit that some people on the TC forum will get a bit negative. I believe that it is more common here on the forums than in reality. I have never seen this and there are many Catholics who consider themselves traditional who are very charitable of our Orthodox brothers and sisters.