Difference Between Eastern Churches on Papal Authority and Anglican Churches

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Cavaradossi said:
You evidently have missed my point. If he is so willing to condemn St. Photius for his anti-Latin polemics, then he should be equally willing and ready to condemn the other Saints whom I enumerated in my post above, all of whom wrote polemical treatises. Besides this, you and I have both gone over the fact that Photius was in fact reinstated to the episcopacy and died at peace with the Church. Why you would choose to try and taint the memory of a man who died at peace with the Church is beyond me.
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I understood your point. But it was not a valid response to brother Don’s statement about St. Photius. Compared to St. Maximos’ approach, his was certainly overly disputatious and was not geared towards understanding or the peace of the Churches.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Nine_Two,
Nine_Two said:
Credit where credit is due. Mardukm did write “St.”
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I refer to him as “St.” (and have done so for many months now) out of respect for my Eastern Catholic brethren who call him St. and because I know that as far as defending orthodoxy, he had it right. But there is a distinction between defending what you do understand (which is what apologetics is about), and disparaging what you do not understand (which is what polemics is). I do have a problem with his polemic against the Latins, because he did not understand Latin, and I don’t think EO should be looking at his misunderstanding as an example to follow.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Peter_J said:
Thanks, although I think the fact that they don’t deliver might be a deal-breaker for me.
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Yes, I am afraid they are about 2300 miles too far away from me to be an appealing dining option without any delivery service.
 
Just as a clarification, I don’t always use the full title of the people I’m discussing because it would be cumbersome. For the record I accept that he is “St. Photius the Great, Patriarch of Contantinople”, and I thought that “Photius” was an acceptable alternative.

Also, I do not like insulting language in polemics, no matter who it is from, because it does not serve to win our brother over in love. When I was still Lutheran I criticized Martin Luther for his language as well. The problem is that people feel it’s legitimate to use since so and so did, and to this day you’ll see Lutherans refering to Catholics as “Papists” and other slurs, and justifying it by its use in Luther and the Lutheran Confessions. In fact I recently had this discussion with a Lutheran pastor on Facebook.

If I offended anyone I am truly sorry, and that was not my intention. My point was to discuss the sins that have been committed by my own church and the obstacles to reunion that created in response to a similar post by a Catholic. If we can’t view our own history honestly, then our dialogue stands little chance of succeeding.
 
dcointin said:
Just as a clarification, I don’t always use the full title of the people I’m discussing because it would be cumbersome. For the record I accept that he is “St. Photius the Great, Patriarch of Contantinople”, and I thought that “Photius” was an acceptable alternative.
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I’ve seen Latin Catholics many, many times refer to St. Augustine simply as “Augustine” in discussions, and I’ve never seen another Latin Catholic make any fuss over it. I’ve seen Copts many, many times refer to St. Athanasius simply as “Athanasius” in discussions, and I’ve never seen another Copt make a fuss over it. I don’t know why someone made such a bid deal about your reference.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
dcointin said:
Just as a clarification, I don’t always use the full title of the people I’m discussing because it would be cumbersome.
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It is not cumbersome to place a “St” in front of the name of a great saint.
dcointin said:
For the record I accept that he is “St. Photius the Great, Patriarch of Contantinople”, and I thought that “Photius” was an acceptable alternative.
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I was always taught that it was disrespectful. Our Lady should be referred to as St Mary, or Most Holy Theotokos, or Panagia (Catholics sometimes use “Blessed Virgin Mary”). The Apostles should be referred to as St Peter, or St Paul, or St John, etc. I don’t often see Pope Benedict refered to as Benedict. It is a matter of simple respect.
 
Mickey said:
It is not cumbersome to place a “St” in front of the name of a great saint.
I was always taught that it was disrespectful. Our Lady should be referred to as St Mary, or Most Holy Theotokos, or Panagia (Catholics sometimes use “Blessed Virgin Mary”). The Apostles should be referred to as St Peter, or St Paul, or St John, etc. I don’t often see Pope Benedict refered to as Benedict. It is a matter of simple respect.
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I realize this is more of an intra-Orthodox discussion, but just to add my perspective as a Catholic, I’ve never really understood this.

I remember well a conversation on this forum a few years, in which one poster made mention of “Mary”, and then another poster replied “Well you’re obviously not a Catholic, since you’re so disrespectful of the Blessed Mother as to call her ‘Mary’!” (That may be a slight paraphrase but it’s pretty close.)

I don’t mean this an attack against Mickey et al, I just find all that insistence a little strange. Cultural difference?
 
Peter_J said:
I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.

How common this phenomenon is is another question. Hesychios seems to regard it as quite common, but I’m slightly skeptical about that.
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It is not fantasy.
Fantasy is believe that we are miles apart when we are a few feet away.
 
Nine_Two said:
I think most Catholics recognize it isn’t true.
But the ones who think it is true come about frequently enough, and are usually obnoxious enough about it that it gets tiring quick.
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You get fed up of talking about unity.
Generally, people dont get tired of talking about war, but peace…is boring and tiring…
 
mardukm said:
From my understanding, the beliefs are not the same, but rather the Faith. The term “Faith” has an objective quality to it that the term “belief” does not carry - the term “belief” really denotes a subjective reality.

Our theologies are different. Theology is the human effort at expressing the one, divine Faith. Our beliefs are attached to the theology first and foremost, so it is natural that our beliefs would not be the same, because we express and understand things differently (according to the different theologies). The goal of ecumenism is to find the common ground of objective Faith, and to understand what our different subjective theologies (i.e. human expressions) are actually teaching about that objective Faith.

When we have achieved that purpose, unity will be achieved.

Granted, I also believe there are certain currents in modern EO’xy that seem to be incompatible with Catholicism (particularly with regards to filioque and ecclesiology). Fortunately, these currents are not completely representative of Eastern Orthodoxy, so there is still hope. Would you agree with this last sentence?

Blessings,
Marduk
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There are huge differences of understanding theology within Catholic Church. so what?
 
Peter_J said:
Clearly, one the central questions is whether the Orthodox really believe what they say they believe. I don’t really have time to treat this question thoroughly right now, but perhaps someone else will.
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If I want to find problems I till find 1000 problems.
If I want to find solutions I may find 1001 solutions.
It depends what you are here for…
 
"And you know what they say, ‘But that would be completely different. I’d have to change everything.’ I say, ‘Wait a second. You just told me there’s no difference and now you tell me it’d be completely different.’ "
  • Janet Smith
 
Peter_J said:
I don’t mean this an attack against Mickey et al, I just find all that insistence a little strange.
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Well…I surely do not mandate such a thing…who I am but a wretched sinner? For me, it is a matter of respect for the holy saints of the Church. 🙂
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
I think there are some Catholics who engage in a kind of fantasy, in which the Orthodox believe the same as Catholics.
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It’s a shame you weren’t born in the 16th century. The organizers of the Union of Brest-Litovsk could have really used you.

In the 21th century, however, a repeat of Brest-Litovsk is highly unlikely.
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Pfaffenhoffen said:
You get fed up of talking about unity.
Generally, people dont get tired of talking about war, but peace…is boring and tiring…
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No, I get fed up with Catholics telling us what we believe, and what is important to us, based on this one individual they talked to once, or read once, who happened to agree with their point of view.

A good discussion on unity between people who respect each others opinions and don’t try to dictate the position of others can be quite good.
 
Mickey said:
Well…I surely do not mandate such a thing…who I am but a wretched sinner? For me, it is a matter of respect for the holy saints of the Church. 🙂
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Nevertheless, there are some who insist on it, even to the point of saying someone “obviously isn’t a Catholic” because they just said “Mary”.
 
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