Difference between SJW and Social Justice in CCC

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

They obviously think your understanding of the teaching may be off. Peter and Paul certainly seemed to have have altered “Christ’s explicit teaching” in their own writings.

There is a stark difference between altering and expanding upon.

No, there isn’t. But this is a Catholic “house”, so I’ll demur at this point.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

Vonsalza:

They obviously think your understanding of the teaching may be off. Peter and Paul certainly seemed to have have altered “Christ’s explicit teaching” in their own writings.

There is a stark difference between altering and expanding upon.

No, there isn’t.

Yeah… there really is. I can build upon a teaching while adhering to the core reality it represents. I cannot explicitly contradict that teaching and claim to be building upon it.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

ProdglArchitect:

Vonsalza:

They obviously think your understanding of the teaching may be off. Peter and Paul certainly seemed to have have altered “Christ’s explicit teaching” in their own writings.

There is a stark difference between altering and expanding upon.

No, there isn’t.

Yeah… there really is. I can build upon a teaching while adhering to the core reality it represents. I cannot explicitly contradict that teaching and claim to be building upon it.

The point being that if Christ establishes one understanding of marriage around 30 AD and Peter and Paul amend it - apparently validly - 20-30 years later, then citing Christ’s words alone seems to present an obviously incomplete understanding of marriage as presented by canon.

So to repeat myself;

your understanding of the teaching may be off.

Last word is yours.

 

[Crusader30]

The Great Society and other government funded programs have taught the poor to be victims.

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

It encourages sloth and is merely socialism

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The point being that if Christ establishes one understanding of marriage around 30 AD and Peter and Paul amend it - apparently validly - 20-30 years later, then citing Christ’s words alone seems to present an obviously incomplete understanding of marriage as presented by canon.

In order for you to make your point, you would have to both show that 1: Peter and Paul amended Christ’s teaching, and 2: This amendment represents a contradiction.

I am assuming that you are referencing the Pauline Privileged with this. I admit, i am not well versed enough to defend this particular choice, apart from relying on the authority of the Church. However, I would point out Paul does say that this is his personal opinion, and not something he considers inspired by God. I would also say that the very stringent requirements for that exception to be met stand in stark contrast to the general assumption of nullity that seems present in the Orthodox faiths.

I know this doesn’t answer the question sufficiently, and I am sorry that I lack a better response.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

Lest anyone claim that this is false, my wife worked in an inner-city school for five years and had numerous students say just this sort of thing. “Why does it matter, I’m just going to live off welfare anyway.” It is very disheartening, that they think so little of their prospects, but also very telling that their culture has become so utterly dependent on handouts.

 

[Vonsalza]

The Great Society and other government funded programs have taught the poor to be victims.

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

It encourages sloth and is merely socialism

So the best thing to do to seniors and the poor is to boot them off of these medical programs and out of publicly funded housing?

:crazy_face:

I worked with a woman from Romania who grew up seeing things differently. She loves America, which is why she’s made a life here, but she always bristles a little bit when she sees someone talk about cutting valuable social lifelines.

Romanian: “So, if we take those 12000 people in our county off assistance, there are 12000 full-time jobs available for them to do that will provide them the care they were receiving?”

Conservative: “Well, they can apply for work in the next county!”

"Romanian: “Oh? They don’t have a very similar problem in the next county?”

---

Smart woman.

We can’t send our low-skill, working-class jobs to Mexico, India and China and then also pretend that these people are only using these programs because they’re lazy. Getting 30 hrs/wk at McDonalds would destroy their quality of life, not enhance it.

And that’s everyone’s problem.

 

[Vonsalza]

Crusader30:

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

Lest anyone claim that this is false, my wife worked in an inner-city school for five years and had numerous students say just this sort of thing. “Why does it matter, I’m just going to live off welfare anyway.” It is very disheartening, that they think so little of their prospects, but also very telling that their culture has become so utterly dependent on handouts.

I see that here in Appalachia too. The freeloader problem is as old as the concept of charity. They are not the majority. Let’s not let the abusive minority dictate what happens to everyone else.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

The point being that if Christ establishes one understanding of marriage around 30 AD and Peter and Paul amend it - apparently validly - 20-30 years later, then citing Christ’s words alone seems to present an obviously incomplete understanding of marriage as presented by canon.

In order for you to make your point, you would have to both show that 1: Peter and Paul amended Christ’s teaching, and 2: This amendment represents a contradiction.

Whoa hoss!

Who said anything about a contradiction??? I just said “alter”.

They be not synonyms.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

Crusader30:

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

Lest anyone claim that this is false, my wife worked in an inner-city school for five years and had numerous students say just this sort of thing. “Why does it matter, I’m just going to live off welfare anyway.” It is very disheartening, that they think so little of their prospects, but also very telling that their culture has become so utterly dependent on handouts.

I see that here in Appalachia too. The freeloader problem is as old as the concept of charity. They are not the majority. Let’s not let the abusive minority dictate what happens to everyone else.

Sadly, at her school is seemed to be more the norm than the exception. Definitely so if you consider how few of her students put in any effort on their schooling…

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

ProdglArchitect:

Crusader30:

They no longer care about education or getting a job but instead leech off of hard working Americans money.

Lest anyone claim that this is false, my wife worked in an inner-city school for five years and had numerous students say just this sort of thing. “Why does it matter, I’m just going to live off welfare anyway.” It is very disheartening, that they think so little of their prospects, but also very telling that their culture has become so utterly dependent on handouts.

I see that here in Appalachia too. The freeloader problem is as old as the concept of charity. They are not the majority. Let’s not let the abusive minority dictate what happens to everyone else.

Sadly, at her school is seemed to be more the norm than the exception. Definitely so if you consider how few of her students put in any effort on their schooling…

Hey, maybe she worked in a spot where the concentration was particularly bad.

But these are national programs. Your wife’s school isn’t a sufficiently broad data range.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I know they are not synonyms, but the point you seem to be trying to make , that the Orthodox interpretation of marriage is valid, would only be true if it were licit to directly contradict Christ’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hey, maybe she worked in a spot where the concentration was particularly bad.

But these are national programs. Your wife’s school isn’t a sufficiently broad data range.

True, but the collections of students, and their general socio-economic status, is in keeping with most inner-city areas across the country. As such, it is not unreasonable to assume a similar mindset given the similar contexts and outcomes.

However, this is getting pretty far off topic, and I’m sorry for bringing it up.

 

[Vonsalza]

I know they are not synonyms, but the point you seem to be trying to make , that the Orthodox interpretation of marriage is valid, would only be true if it were licit to directly contradict Christ’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.

Indissoluble… unless they qualify for the Petrine or Pauline Privileges, right? So not completely indissoluble.

“Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter”

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Hey, maybe she worked in a spot where the concentration was particularly bad.

But these are national programs. Your wife’s school isn’t a sufficiently broad data range.

True, but the collections of students, and their general socio-economic status, is in keeping with most inner-city areas across the country. As such, it is not unreasonable to assume a similar mindset given the similar contexts and outcomes.

However, this is getting pretty far off topic, and I’m sorry for bringing it up.

It’s probably closer to the topic than our discussion about Orthodox and Catholic views on marriage.

And to your point, I’m basically saying that the assumption is unreasonable.

 

[Elf01]

Indissoluble… unless they qualify for the Petrine or Pauline Privileges, right? So not completely indissoluble.

The privileges apply to non sacramental marriages. A sacramental marriage (what God has joined) is indissoluble.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Exactly. what @Crusader30 may not realize is that “The Church” begins with your parish.

Does your parish have the funds to build (and I am going to assume staff & operate) a soup kitchen?

How about a vocational school (assuming you mean something like what we would call a Vo-Tech school that trains people in trades? Can your parish build and operate such?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Exactly. what the poster does not realize is that “The Church” begins with your parish.

Does your parish have the funds to build (and I am going to assume staff & operate) a soup kitchen?

How about a vocational school (assuming you mean something like what we would call a Vo-Tech school that trains people in trades? Can your parish build and operate such?

I know my parish does not and cannot. We missed our quarterly targets last time. We have lots of people, but not so much wealth.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Indissoluble… unless they qualify for the Petrine or Pauline Privileges, right? So not completely indissoluble.

The privileges apply to non sacramental marriages. A sacramental marriage (what God has joined) is indissoluble.

Sure, but that this point in Christian history, I’d argue the vast majority marriages are not strictly sacramental, given the success of other forms of Christianity in the west - particularly the US.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Same here.

Oddly, I’ve found that some people think the Vatican sends financial support to parishes!