Difference in Denominations

[GKMotley]

It won’t. I’ve been posting the presumptive background for many, many years. And it merely puts the usually cited numbers in perspective, not refuting them absolutely. Point is, no one knows what might be THE correct number of protestant denoms. Could be 30K, could be 20K. Could be 5k. Could be 120K. Depends on what one means by denomination.

To begin, I invite anyone hanging a hat on 33K or 32K (most often seen these days) as the true number of whatever is assumed to be being counted, to identify where these numbers came from and who promulgated them. I have an idea, of the ultimate source, from watching this occur online many, many times over many years, and commenting on it. Could be wrong, sure. Anyone with another candidate source, trot it out. I’ve never seen one adduced.

Center for the Study of Global Christianity is the source, AFAIK. Publishers of a lot of religious demographic data for a number of years, updated from time to time.

Occasionally they get questioned about their numbers, how derived, etc. Which gives them an opportunity to explain what they mean by “denomination” As here:

"Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

‘Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.’ "

Note that the definition is, in essence, any time a denomination has a presence in a country, that counts as a separate denomination. Thus the RCC counts here as 236 or 238 denominations.

It does no good to gripe that this is a really odd way to count demons. Sure it is. But these folk get to count stuff however they want, fro the purposes of their organization. It’s their study. And in some professional reviews I’ve seen over the years, of their organization and its output, some other professional religious sociologists and demographic people have little use for them. Me, I don’t judge. A new edition of the ENCYCLOPEDIA is due out shortly, for those interested.

This will not clear the internet of 33 (32, 30, 22, you name it) thousand protestant denoms. Nor this board. But, as far as I know, it is the ultimate source of the chained, no-source figures of protestant denoms floating around.

 

[Wannano]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Hopefully but not likely the issue can be shredded. As I have also proposed before…if the Catholic Church being one is represented in the study as actually 236, then by simple math 32,000 gets divided by 236 which results in 136 non-Catholic denominations which is probably realistic.

I am vowing to never react to this constant baloney again but rather when confronted with it will pray for those who use the misinformation as a polemical weapon.

 

[GKMotley]

I often make vows. Never seem to follow them.

Your idea that one might divide the total by 236/238 is logical on the face. If one assumes that all other denominations have a presence in as wide a spread of countries (total world wide number of them, that is) as the RCC. Plus a couple of other assumptions.

But, yes. The figures are useless for this sort of purpose.

 

[JonNC]

Lutheranism evolved from the teaching of Martin Luther. It retains a lot of the outward look of Catholicism, but it rejected the Catholic penitential system: the mass, confession, absolution, penance, indulgences, pilgrimage, prayer to the saints, prayer for the dead, and purgatory.

Not exactly on some of these, such as confession/ Holy Absolution, and prayer for the dead, but that’s another thread.

A major group of Reformers began to drift away from Luther’s more conservative form of Protestantism. These became the Reformed or Presbyterian churches. They adopted Calvinist theology

Most of them were never in line with Luther’s theology in the first place to “drift away”. ISTM they were more in line with Zwingli.

 

[adf417]

@Wannano and @GKMotley

If the math as you say is logical, which i can agree to also, can we look at this in a single given country for simplistic purposes?

‘Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.’ "

If the math is good and we choose one country which as this article states would have one Catholic “denomination”, can we at least get to some factor of non-Catholic “denomination, sect, what ever term you want to use, that we can apply the math to on a global scale? Can you PLEASE at least help us get to this # on a more manageable scale so we all can help put an end to this discussion?

You can call the report “baloney”, “misinformation” or “a polemical weapon” all you wish but until you produce the proper formula or real number with backup you are not helping the situation or any dialogue to prevent this from continuing.

If i knew the correct # of non-Catholic denominations i would personally rebuke any one using these other numbers myself as false but i cant because i dont know what the # is and you must agree it is many.

Peace!!!

 

[VonDerTann]

Good point adf417. It’s real easy to say someone else’s computations are wrong (let alone calling names) without offering anything productive as to what the number is.

 

[GKMotley]

Can I help? No. If you want to obtain the latest data from this group, and dig into it, maybe it would be useful. Good luck. But if you choose one country, how can you be sure it is representative?

Revealing what the definition of denomination used in this data is - that’s my help. And the extent of the crusade. You can’t know what the numbers mean unless you know what they are actually counting.

Added:If asked, how many, I would probably say a large number. Or possibly more than that. Indeed, I have done so.

 

[GKMotley]

I have no idea what the number is. What productive (name removed by moderator)ut do you offer? If you count every appearance of their definition of denomination separately, for each country it appears in, then these figures might be fine. But in that case, you accept the premise. I know from other data, unrelated, that the Episcopal Church claimed a presence in 16 countries, at one point recently. So the Episcopal Church would contribute 16 denominations to the total, by this accounting.

I’ve never seen the data sourced to any place, in appearances in places like this, including this source I offer. It is chained gleanings from the internet, by folks who think they have found something with some sort of scientific patina, that presents an accurate total of the protestant denominations. I doubt it. It could be too large. It could be too small. But it counts the RCC as 236 denominations. If that seems reasonable to you, cherish the illusion.

 

[ltwin]

Not exactly on some of these, such as confession/ Holy Absolution, and prayer for the dead, but that’s another thread.

True, but would you agree that Luther’s theology sought to dismantle the Catholic penitential system so that while Luther may have kept confession and allowed prayer for the dead, he placed them in a different theological context?

And maybe this is for a different thread, but since Luther eventually denied the reality of purgatory, what was the reason he continued to sanction prayer for the dead?

 

[commenter]

Your summary is excellent, in terms of history, which still impacts today. But the contemporary trend seems to include:

Growth in non denominational groups, which seem conservative on the surface but with little doctrine; based on being user friendly;

A tendency for many groups to coalesce around “Mainline” rather than their historic traditions; soon ELCA will have more in common with TEC than with LCMS.

Some groups coalescing around “evangelicalism”, more so than their historical distinctions; but some remaining apart;

Uninformed Catholics making sweeping generalizations about “Protestants”, a word we use but they now avoid.

 

[Sursumcorda1]

Is there any religion that is not divided into conservative and liberal camps? Even within the two “camps” themselves, ie conservative liberals etc.

When your denomination has to get lawyers to decide who owns the church building because one group outvoted another group, you know this wasn’t God’s plan.

 

[GKMotley]

Yep. Watched that train wreck myself.

 

[JonNC]

True, but would you agree that Luther’s theology sought to dismantle the Catholic penitential system so that while Luther may have kept confession and allowed prayer for the dead, he placed them in a different theological context?

That’s why I said, not exactly. For Luther, confession/ Holy Absolution is, in many ways, an extension of Baptism.
Confession is a means by which we confess our sins, as we are called to do, and receive forgiveness. From the Small Catechism:

Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

It also is intended to sooth the conscience, to relieve the feelings of guilt for what we have done, “ in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.” Hearing the pastor/confessor pronounce absolution is truly a gift from God.

And maybe this is for a different thread, but since Luther eventually denied the reality of purgatory, what was the reason he continued to sanction prayer for the dead?

I think here you overstate Luther’s view of Purgatory, but be that as it may, Luther’s position was to essentially pray a few times, then leave it to His will.

“ As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.”

And this is reflected in Lutheran liturgy, and in the Apology.

https://weedon.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-prayer-for-dead.html

You right, however, that Luther vigorously rejected the practices and ceremonies, indulgences, etc. that had grown up around Purgatory and prayers for and to the dead n

 

[Wannano]

Good point adf417. It’s real easy to say someone else’s computations are wrong (let alone calling names) without offering anything productive as to what the number is.

Please show me where I have called anyone names. If calling the study baloney and misinformation is hurtful to you personally I am very sorry.

Over the years I have been here the perceived numbers of Protestant denominations have been used polemically over and over. Why is there need to have this discussion at all? For what purpose did you bring it up again? Sure, there are numerous different denominations…so what? If you perceive that each one is pitted against the other and feels that no other than themselves has any truth then you are misinformed.

Stating that there are 32,000 sects of Protestants and that they all probably think they have the truth is about as loving and helpful as Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary.

 

[ltwin]

Reminds me of that time when there was 3 popes.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Thing with 3 Popes was that everyone still believed they are part of Catholic Church- every Priest, Nun, Bishop, Monk and every faithful remained connected to Holy See- only problem was that nobody was sure who represents Holy See. It is very different than schism over who is right or so. And proof of this is that after dispute was settled, there was nothing that would suggest need for something akin to lawsuits to restore property.

I agree that it is not necessarily true that getting lawyers to decide who owns Church building is sign that denomination is wrong, neither is it a good sign in itself.

Stating that there are 32,000 sects of Protestants and that they all probably think they have the truth is about as loving and helpful as Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary.

Even if there were 200, I would consider that far too many. With every teaching there is, I’d never guess there could be so many combinations [of yes/no/we do not know] to mix up such high numbers. Especially when lots of these things depend on each other, and some of teachings can not be compromised because otherwise you’d become something akin to Jehovah’s Witnesses and not be considered Protestant anymore.

 

[adf417]

Can I help? No. If you want to obtain the latest data from this group, and dig into it, maybe it would be useful. Good luck. But if you choose one country, how can you be sure it is representative?

Oh i do understand the conundrum! And i hope you are not suggesting this to be the work of a Catholic, correct?

I just dont understand the issue of using a number like 20k, 30k, 33k… I do not use them my self but i can sure understand why someone would. I think it must be a number large enough to no be able to be verified, otherwise i think it would have been by now, which is quite telling in itself. Maybe these numbers are inflated but i haven’t seen anything to help verify that.

As i suggested above using the single country focus, say the USA, i would think this would be more manageable to count. Whether it is representative or not it sure would be a solid stat that would go a long way in refuting or verifying the original account. If this smaller sample size is still not manageable then using the original account would seem somewhat reasonable, correct?

Peace!!!

 

[GKMotley]

It certainly could be a hobby for someone. I have other hobbies.

If by asking if I’m suggesting this might be the work of a Catholic, you mean the whole ongoing work these folk do in producing their studies on Christian demographics, however idiosyncratically they might define things, over the more than 30 years they’ve apparently been doing it, for some possibly nefarious reason, no. As far as I know, the individual who started this, back whenever it was, was an Anglican priest, working as a sociologist.

Tell you what. I think the 3rd edition of their WORLD CHRISTIAN ENCYCLOPEDIA is due out in a month or so. Costs a couple of hundred $$$, I believe. Pick up a copy and dig into it. It seems to have reams of data, miles of charts, tables, maps, and stuff. And might announce that now the total number is in the 47,000 range. Let us know what you find.

Meanwhile, I’ll continue asking anyone who uses 20, 30, 40, whatever thousand in this context, where those figures come from and how are they derived. When the possible number might be a googolplex, for all I know.

Pax.

 

[GKMotley]

I have decided that since the range of numbers is reasonably close to what I estimate my total book holdings to be (in the 30K range, best estimate), I’m going to use the current number of protestant denominations as my best guess for my library size.

 

[GKMotley]

I think that could only be the case if there is a significant increase in the number of countries in the world. The RCC seems to be credited with a presence in almost all of them, now.