Differences between Catholic faith and Baptist?

[MrS]

Luther once (often) described a church as the place where we worship God, and the sacraments are duly administered.

Guess that would eliminate just about everybody but the Catholics…http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Anyway, I just went to Baptist service this past Sunday and posted a comment on another site…

it follows

 

[MrS]

I went to a Baptist Church today… not for the service, but to watch 4 of my grandkids in a pageant. It was cute, but expectedly painful, listening to little kids sing. :bigyikes:

After the pageant, the pastor gave his talk. That was more painful. His presentation was based on the definition of religion - that we should forget about religion and have a relationship with God. Unfortunately, most there did not know that religion means a relationship with God. Anyway, he must have said 25 times “the Bible says”. I just kept grinning

I kept looking around for some one’s Bible to speak. And then without any warning he said… “You know, we come to Church to learn about God, and the Bible says…”

I felt like blurting out “you almost got it”!!!

But I knew I would not hear:
“The Church SAYS, and the Bible which the Church gave us follows up with the written version which can only be correctly interpreted by the Church which gave it to us…”

But then we know how many newer “religions”, I mean relationships, think their theology either predates the Bible, or else gives them the claim that finally they got it right.

Anyway, the talk was interspersed with “all you have to do is believe” (no mention of obedience), and “proclaim from the Scriptures that you accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior” (what book is that in?), and other rather simple ways of attaining an assurance of eternal salvation (unless down the road it is discovered that you probably weren’t saved in the first place)

My wife was so grateful that I did not raise my hand.:whacky:

All in all it was a rewarding experience. Time with my loved ones, and a chance to again realize how valuable the Catholic Church really is for salvation.

If it is only the Bible, then the Pastor should give away the music books, give away the pews, give away the activities center, sell the building etc. But the answer would be “no, we have those things to bring us closer to God”

My response? "Amen, these things are very helpful, and in the Catholic Church we have more of them… the sacraments, the ministerial Priesthood, the saints, the Magisterium, and on and on and on… and best of all, The Mass, and the Real Presence.
…and the Bible says so!!

 

[MrS]

ahimsaman72:

dear mayra, mayra -

I understand your thought processes here. Only God knows and judges perfectly. I believe in the universal salvation of all men, so Scott will suffer and be purified for the wrongs he has done, just like us.

Peace…

What if his purification is not completed in this life (as is the case with virtually every man!!)?

 

[ahimsaman72]

MrS:

Luther once (often) described a church as the place where we worship God, and the sacraments are duly administered.

Guess that would eliminate just about everybody but the Catholics…http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

And the Orthodox - yes, I guess it would.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MrS:

What if his purification is not completed in this life (as is the case with virtually every man!!)?

Then purification must be done after death, of course.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MrS:

I went to a Baptist Church today… not for the service, but to watch 4 of my grandkids in a pageant. It was cute, but expectedly painful, listening to little kids sing. :bigyikes:

After the pageant, the pastor gave his talk. That was more painful. His presentation was based on the definition of religion - that we should forget about religion and have a relationship with God. Unfortunately, most there did not know that religion means a relationship with God. Anyway, he must have said 25 times “the Bible says”. I just kept grinning

I kept looking around for some one’s Bible to speak. And then without any warning he said… “You know, we come to Church to learn about God, and the Bible says…”

I felt like blurting out “you almost got it”!!!

But I knew I would not hear:
“The Church SAYS, and the Bible which the Church gave us follows up with the written version which can only be correctly interpreted by the Church which gave it to us…”

But then we know how many newer “religions”, I mean relationships, think their theology either predates the Bible, or else gives them the claim that finally they got it right.

Anyway, the talk was interspersed with “all you have to do is believe” (no mention of obedience), and “proclaim from the Scriptures that you accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior” (what book is that in?), and other rather simple ways of attaining an assurance of eternal salvation (unless down the road it is discovered that you probably weren’t saved in the first place)

My wife was so grateful that I did not raise my hand.:whacky:

All in all it was a rewarding experience. Time with my loved ones, and a chance to again realize how valuable the Catholic Church really is for salvation.

If it is only the Bible, then the Pastor should give away the music books, give away the pews, give away the activities center, sell the building etc. But the answer would be “no, we have those things to bring us closer to God”

My response? "Amen, these things are very helpful, and in the Catholic Church we have more of them… the sacraments, the ministerial Priesthood, the saints, the Magisterium, and on and on and on… and best of all, The Mass, and the Real Presence.
…and the Bible says so!!

The Bible is God-breathed and therefore does speak what God has to say. You wouldn’t posit that it isn’t God-breathed and revelatory, would you? Of course not.

It speaks - it reveals.

You seem to totally dismiss Romans 10:9,10 in which the author (God) speaks of believing and confessing for salvation. And you neglect a couple of passages which speak of receiving and accepting Christ. That would be Colossians 2:6 and John 1:12.

Your tone continues to condescend others around you. I encourage you to adopt a different way to converse with people so that they don’t feel like they are so much of an adversary.

Peace…

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

There is no kneeling when we go into the church - no kneeling and waiting for services to begin, etc. It’s just not a custom with Baptists. There’s no “confessional” aspect to the services - so no need for kneeling.

Kneeling in Catholic Churches is not a “confessional” aspect. It is a posture of worship and adoration. God Himself is present – Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity – in the tabernacle on every Catholic altar.

There is no Real Presence of Christ in Baptist churches; hence there is no impetus to kneel. The focus of Baptist worship is horizontal (singing and praying with each other, “fellowshipping”); Catholic worship is vertical (worship and adoration of God).

The first time I entered the door of a Catholic Church I knew that I was observing worship. I could sense His Presence. It was awesome.

“And when I caught sight of Him, I fell down at his feet as though dead.” Rev 1:17.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

The Bible is God-breathed and therefore does speak what God has to say.

The Bible isn’t a continuous book, but a collection of writings. How do you know that any or all of the writings are God-breathed? How do you know which writings the Bible should contain? Where is the God-given, inspired table of contents?

You wouldn’t posit that it isn’t God-breathed and revelatory, would you? Of course not.

No. I believe it not because the Bible itself contains this information (it doesn’t), but because the Church founded by Christ who wrote the NT, formed the Bible, and speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16, Mt 15:10) teaches me that it’s true. The Bible is inanimate and cannot vouch for itself.

It speaks - it reveals.

What God “said” in the Scriptures can be misunderstood, as we know from the thousands of denominations that interpret the Bible differently. Who got it right, if anyone?

You seem to totally dismiss Romans 10:9,10 in which the author (God) speaks of believing and confessing for salvation.

But this is not all the Bible says about salvation. The Bible must be read holistically, thematically.

And you neglect a couple of passages which speak of receiving and accepting Christ. That would be Colossians 2:6 and John 1:12.

Col 2:6: “So as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught [ORALLY] abounding in thanksgiving” (emphasis added). The faith they were taught was the faith of the Apostes – the Catholic Faith.

John 1:12: But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God . . .

The early Christians accepted and received Christ in faith, in baptism, in the Eucharist, but not through an altar call such as the minister was talking about in MrS’s illustration. (Altar calls began only in the 19th century.)

Your tone continues to condescend others around you. I encourage you to adopt a different way to converse with people so that they don’t feel like they are so much of an adversary.

I don’t think MrS is directing his comments to anyone personally. He’s a man who sees the stark contrast between original, authentic Christianity and the man-made doctrines of Protestantism that have developed within the last 487 years.

I know Protestants are sincere, having been one, but they’re sincerely wrong.

Please don’t take offense where none is intended. Am I right, MrS?

Peace be with you, Ahimsa.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Ahimsa, here’s your original post and my question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
*ahimsaman, I’m curious as to what you were thinking when you wrote this. All Christians, by definition, believe they are saved by Christ. He is the Redeemer. What church believes men save themselves?

Thanks, Jay*

You either believe in God’s sovereignty in man’s salvation or man’s sovereignty in his salvation.

All who follow man’s sovereignty (I live a good life - confess mortal sins, etc. etc, followed the ten commandments, etc) would be many Baptists, Catholics, any denomination you want to bring up.

Or, you believe in God’s sovereignty (He predistines and elects whom He will - believer naturally follows) which is adhered to by some Baptists, Christian Reformed, etc.

It is either by works or grace.

I contest it is grace.

“For by grace are ye saved…” Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

Then purification must be done after death, of course.

This is the definition of Purgatory: the process of purification of the soul after death in preparation for heaven.

To clarify: You believe in universal salvation? Not contingent upon contrition or repentance? Everybody goes to heaven? No penalties for sin? Thus there is no sin? I’m confused.

Thanks, Jay

 

[mayra_hart]

when is come to god final judgement i don’t think he will judge a man like scott peterson the same way he will judge someone that has committed a lie. ??

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven). Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

hello mercy -

I saw this and thought I would share with you. Actually, there are no kneelers, because there is no “kneeling” in services .

I know - you think I’m a smarty-pants - but it is reality. Baptists either sit during prayer or pray standing up. There is no kneeling when we go into the church - no kneeling and waiting for services to begin, etc. It’s just not a custom with Baptists. There’s no “confessional” aspect to the services - so no need for kneeling.

Hope this helps.

Question: is your use of “confessional” here in the sense of “confessing one’s faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” or “confessing one’s sins?”

Baptists I know and love tell me that they frequently pray on their knees. And since in the Bible people kneel in prayer (Jesus did it!), I was just curious that it isn’t a feature of Baptist public worship.

 

[Katholikos]

Katholikos:

No. I believe it not because the Bible itself contains this information (it doesn’t), but because the Church founded by Christ who wrote the NT, formed the Bible, and speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16, Mt 15:10) teaches me that it’s true. The Bible is inanimate and cannot vouch for itself.

I just noticed a typographical error in this post. Should read Mt 15:40. Sorry.

JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

Kneeling in Catholic Churches is not a “confessional” aspect. It is a posture of worship and adoration. God Himself is present – Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity – in the tabernacle on every Catholic altar.

There is no Real Presence of Christ in Baptist churches; hence there is no impetus to kneel. The focus of Baptist worship is horizontal (singing and praying with each other, “fellowshipping”); Catholic worship is vertical (worship and adoration of God).

The first time I entered the door of a Catholic Church I knew that I was observing worship. I could sense His Presence. It was awesome.

“And when I caught sight of Him, I fell down at his feet as though dead.” Rev 1:17.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

We feel Christ living - among us - “where two or three are gathered”, so we feel we are fellowshipping with the risen Christ and our brothers and sisters, instead of focusing on a slain Christ. Every church I’ve been a member of has had a giant cross as a focal point in the sanctuary. But, the Cross is empty. We don’t have crucifixes. So, there’s some difference obviously in how we worship - I agree.

I have been to mass a couple times myself. I admit it is a worshipful experience - but in a different way than at my Baptist church. It is worshipful there as well. Of course we have no altar with the slain Christ on it. We feel we have the risen Christ among us as He appeared to His disciples after the resurrection.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

The Bible isn’t a continuous book, but a collection of writings. How do you know that any or all of the writings are God-breathed? How do you know which writings the Bible should contain? Where is the God-given, inspired table of contents?

No. I believe it not because the Bible itself contains this information (it doesn’t), but because the Church founded by Christ who wrote the NT, formed the Bible, and speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16, Mt 15:10) teaches me that it’s true. The Bible is inanimate and cannot vouch for itself.

What God “said” in the Scriptures can be misunderstood, as we know from the thousands of denominations that interpret the Bible differently. Who got it right, if anyone?

But this is not all the Bible says about salvation. The Bible must be read holistically, thematically.

Col 2:6: “So as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught [ORALLY] abounding in thanksgiving” (emphasis added). The faith they were taught was the faith of the Apostes – the Catholic Faith.

The early Christians accepted and received Christ in faith, in baptism, in the Eucharist, but not through an altar call such as the minister was talking about in MrS’s illustration. (Altar calls began only in the 19th century.)

I don’t think MrS is directing his comments to anyone personally. He’s a man who sees the stark contrast between original, authentic Christianity and the man-made doctrines of Protestantism that have developed within the last 487 years.

I know Protestants are sincere, having been one, but they’re sincerely wrong.

Please don’t take offense where none is intended. Am I right, MrS?

Peace be with you, Ahimsa.

JMJ Jay

With all due respect concerning MrS:

He wrote a post on another thread which mirrors the same comments he made here on this thread. He speaks in condescending tones but veils it under the auspices of “speaking the truth”. In his mind if he is “speaking truth” (as he sees it and his church believes it) then it is okay to speak in such manners. The “truth” can never be sacrificed when ecumenism is involved (in his opinion). Again, this is based on his definition of truth.

So, your post is presumptous that his post is intended in purity. I posit that given my experience with him this is indicative of his nature here on the forums.

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

We feel we have the risen Christ among us as He appeared to His disciples after the resurrection.

Peace…

You understand that without the Resurrection, the Sacrifice of the Mass would be impossible, don’t you?

We receive the living Body of Christ in the Eucharist. We’re not chomping on a cadaver! Yuk!

For my money, the cross/crucifix “controversy” is a complete non-issue. Catholics are canonically required to have a crucifix displayed at the altar as an emblem of the Sacrifice without which the Resurrection and redemption would have been impossible. The Crucifix recalls the entire mystery of the Eucharist, not just the death. Catholics have plain crosses all over the place to symbolize their faith.

Just as an example, members of the Confraternity of Penitents, which requires its members to be “faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church,” wear a cross openly at all times. There is no specification in our Statutes that we wear a crucifix, and I usually do not.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Question: is your use of “confessional” here in the sense of “confessing one’s faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” or “confessing one’s sins?”

Baptists I know and love tell me that they frequently pray on their knees. And since in the Bible people kneel in prayer (Jesus did it!), I was just curious that it isn’t a feature of Baptist public worship.

I meant confessing of one’s sins. As Katholikos pointed out to me due to my ignorance - kneeling in the Catholic Church is done out of reverence and worship - not an aspect of “confession”.

You love Baptists??? Just kidding. I feel I can joke with you and you won’t throw me in the river.

The only point during a service when people will kneel in prayer is actually at the end of the service if they go up to the front of the church to pray. This is the “altar call” so many speak of. It’s a chance to pray, confess sins to the pastor, receive brief counseling, receive Christ as Saviour.

At home, yes, generally the people I know pray on their knees. As Christ mentioned in the Scriptures we go into a place where we are alone with God and usually get on our knees. Usually, I personally get on my knees, but also outstretch my arms and touch the floor and with my forehead also touching the floor. I feel it’s only proper to get as low as you can go in honor and respect when meeting Christ in prayer.

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

I meant confessing of one’s sins.

Ah. Understood.

You love Baptists??? Just kidding. I feel I can joke with you and you won’t throw me in the river.

Baptists believe in God. Baptists believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Baptists are for the most part pro-life. What’s not to love?

This is the “altar call” so many speak of. It’s a chance to pray, confess sins to the pastor, receive brief counseling, receive Christ as Saviour.

Confess sins to the pastor? You’d better be careful, this sounds pretty “catholic” to me! Can you do this and “receive Christ as Saviour” more than once? Catholics go through this process constantly. Daily. In our hearts. In Confession. In the Eucharist. (You knew that)

 

[Katholikos]

J.R.:

Just out of curiosity, how did he bash the Pope and the Church? What did he or they say exactly? I would like to know so I can prepare myself if it happens to me. Thank You and God Bless.

J.R., the minister began by saying “we know this individual is in heaven, because he was saved.” I cringed at the deceased not being referred to by name and the assumption that he was in heaven, as if the minister knew the condition of this person’s soul at death. Baptists I have known could tell you for sure who was in heaven and who went to hell. It was a typical Southern Baptist sermon. He said “it’s too late for this individual, his fate was sealed when he died. Thank God, he made the right choice and accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, but how about YOU? It’s not too late for YOU.” Then began his “altar call” speech, which seemed so out of place at a funeral. “My friends, if any of you are counting on a church to save you, or the Pope to save you, hear my words. No church can save you. No Pope can save you. You can’t work your way into heaven. Only belief in Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior can save you from eternal damnation. Get right with the Lord. Give your heart to the Lord . . . you could be killed when you walk out that door. Are you SURE you are saved? You can be saved right now . . .”

He thinks Catholics believe that they are saved by the Church, or the Pope, or their “works,” and not by the Sacrifice of Christ. Which is not true. He should know better. The teachings of the Church are readily available so that everyone and anyone can know them, but he’d rather repeat his assumptions publicly and spread faleshoods than to bother learning the truth. Ministers who bear false witness against the Church make me furious. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

He didn’t go so far as asking ppl to come forward and “get saved” as he would have at a church service, but said “if you want to be sure of your salvation, see me after the funeral …”. And “if you’re looking for a church home where biblical truth is preached, look no further.”

I don’t remember the minister’s exact words, of course, but this is close. He had little to say about the deceased, even though this was his funeral.

All of this is Baptist-speak for ***Catholics, you’re going to hell if you don’t “get saved.” ***

---

I grew up Baptist. I was immersed twice. I answered “altar calls” and “got saved” many times. I believed in “once saved, always saved” but I could never be sure I was really saved. What if I wasn’t sincere enough when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? I figured I’d better try that one more time, just to be sure. Wait – was I sincere enough the second time? The third? I found that I could never be sure, no matter how many times I “got saved.” I swung between the emotional high of being smug and certain that I was saved and the fear that I had deceived myself, and I couldn’t know for sure. Then I decided, the h^%$ with it. The illogical doctrine of Sola Scriptura made me an agnostic, and then I drifted into atheism. Now, thanks be to God, I’m home at last.

JMJ Jay ****

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Ah. Understood.

Baptists believe in God. Baptists believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Baptists are for the most part pro-life. What’s not to love?

Confess sins to the pastor? You’d better be careful, this sounds pretty “catholic” to me! Can you do this and “receive Christ as Saviour” more than once? Catholics go through this process constantly. Daily. In our hearts. In Confession. In the Eucharist. (You knew that)

We are pretty lovable - I admit .

I know - sounds Catholic. First, yes, confess sins to the pastor. The altar call is an opportunity for anyone burdened by their sin or who just simply want to pray. It is an emotional experience to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters and plead your case before God for mercy. When I have had spiritual problems in my life, I have found that going before the altar, kneeling and confessing problems with sin before the pastor is quite refreshing. We will pray together - he will wrap his arm around me - and we go before God together.

Remember, we don’t believe the pastor exonerates the sin, but that since he is considered to be a “holy” man of God that he can give us insight in dealing with our problems and can express mercy and grace to us - his flock. We consider the pastor to be the under-shepherd with Christ being, of course, the Great Shepherd. So, it is similar but still quite different than the Catholic position of confession of sins to the priest.

As to receiving Christ more than once: Baptist theology says that you receive Christ ONCE in your life as your Saviour. If sin occurs or we need reconciliation with God, we confess our sins to God (and perhaps our pastor or brother or sister), He forgives our sin:

1 John 1:9:

• 1. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.*

If we have led a sinful life or have been in continual sin for some time, we go before the congregation and pastor and “re-commit” our lives to following Christ.

So, there’s “receiving Christ as Saviour” which translates to salvation of the individual and then there is “recommitment to Christ” which does not save, but reconciles your relationship with God.