Differences between Catholic faith and Baptist?

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

The only point during a service when people will kneel in prayer is actually at the end of the service if they go up to the front of the church to pray. This is the “altar call” so many speak of. It’s a chance to pray, confess sins to the pastor, receive brief counseling, receive Christ as Saviour.

I’ve never known Baptists to examine their consciences and confess specific sins, and they don’t expect absolution. They just confess that “I am a sinner” and in turn receive from God a “blanket of forgiveness” that covers all their wrongdoing; but they usually don’t accuse themselves in detail of specific sins. Daily examination of conscience and admission of specific sins to another (the priest, acting in persona Christi) was a totally new experience for me. I found it to be so good for my psychological health and so necessary for my spiritual growth.

JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

You understand that without the Resurrection, the Sacrifice of the Mass would be impossible, don’t you?

We receive the living Body of Christ in the Eucharist. We’re not chomping on a cadaver! Yuk!

For my money, the cross/crucifix “controversy” is a complete non-issue. Catholics are canonically required to have a crucifix displayed at the altar as an emblem of the Sacrifice without which the Resurrection and redemption would have been impossible. The Crucifix recalls the entire mystery of the Eucharist, not just the death. Catholics have plain crosses all over the place to symbolize their faith.

Just as an example, members of the Confraternity of Penitents, which requires its members to be “faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church,” wear a cross openly at all times. There is no specification in our Statutes that we wear a crucifix, and I usually do not.

Yes, of course - I didn’t mean to imply you chew on a cadaver! I admit, though, the mystery of the eucharist is quite difficult of a concept for me to understand.

At the local parish I attended, there was a HUGE crucifix above or near the altar. It is beautfiul. I didn’t notice any other crosses. Maybe I didn’t look hard enough. The RCIA director’s office is filled with crucifixes - many lovely ones.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

J.R., the minister began by saying “we know this individual is in heaven, because he was saved.” I cringed at the deceased not being referred to by name and the assumption that he was in heaven, as if the minister knew the condition of this person’s soul at death. Baptists I have known could tell you for sure who was in heaven and who went to hell. It was a typical Southern Baptist sermon. He said “it’s too late for this individual, his fate was sealed when he died. Thank God, he made the right choice and accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, but how about YOU? It’s not too late for YOU.” Then began his “altar call” speech, which seemed so out of place at a funeral. “My friends, if any of you are counting on a church to save you, or the Pope to save you, hear my words. No church can save you. No Pope can save you. You can’t work your way into heaven. Only belief in Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior can save you from eternal damnation. Get right with the Lord. Give your heart to the Lord . . . you could be killed when you walk out that door. Are you SURE you are saved? You can be saved right now . . .”

He thinks Catholics believe that they are saved by the Church, or the Pope, or their “works,” and not by the Sacrifice of Christ. Which is not true. He should know better. The teachings of the Church are readily available so that everyone and anyone can know them, but he’d rather repeat his assumptions publicly and spread faleshoods than to bother learning the truth. Ministers who bear false witness against the Church make me furious. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

He didn’t go so far as asking ppl to come forward and “get saved” as he would have at a church service, but said “if you want to be sure of your salvation, see me after the funeral …”. And “if you’re looking for a church home where biblical truth is preached, look no further.”

I don’t remember the minister’s exact words, of course, but this is close. He had little to say about the deceased, even though this was his funeral.

All of this is Baptist-speak for ***Catholics, you’re going to hell if you don’t “get saved.” ***

---

I grew up Baptist. I was immersed twice. I answered “altar calls” and “got saved” many times. I believed in “once saved, always saved” but I could never be sure I was really saved. What if I wasn’t sincere enough when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior? I figured I’d better try that one more time, just to be sure. Wait – was I sincere enough the second time? The third? I found that I could never be sure, no matter how many times I “got saved.” I swung between the emotional high of being smug and certain that I was saved and the fear that I had deceived myself, and I couldn’t know for sure. Then I decided, the h^%$ with it. The illogical doctrine of Sola Scriptura made me an agnostic, and then I drifted into atheism. Now, thanks be to God, I’m home at last.

JMJ Jay

Don’t take this the wrong way, Jay, but as far as the “knowing whether you were sincere and were saved”: There’s an analogy of a train. The head car is fact, the second is faith, the last is feelings. That’s the order of your faith. You don’t go on your feelings, you “go” on what the Bible has to say about salvation (the facts). The facts of confession and salvation are in the Bible. You believe the facts, no matter what your emotional experience is.

Some get caught up in the line of thinking such as: “Well, I don’t feel saved. I didn’t cry when I prayed that prayer.” This (in Baptist theology) is basing your faith on feelings and not facts as recorded in Scripture.

Only maturity in your faith as a Baptist settles the question of this idea of “intention” and “feeling” about salvation. It comes with time and study of the Bible and prayer and leaning on your brothers and sisters.

This is the Baptist thinking. The above analogy of fact, faith and feelings comes from a Baptist tract I have had in the past. My explanation was based on that.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

First, yes, confess sins to the pastor.

Specific sins? “I lost my temper and called my brother an unrepeatable name, twice.” or “I lose my temper.”??

The altar call is an opportunity for anyone burdened by their sin or who just simply want to pray. It is an emotional experience to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters and plead your case before God for mercy.

Don’t Catholics know that! But we believe that sacramental confession, is much more than emotional. For us, the action of Christ is *real, *whether or not we feel it – and sometimes we do not.

When I have had spiritual problems in my life, I have found that going before the altar, kneeling and confessing problems with sin before the pastor is quite refreshing. We will pray together - he will wrap his arm around me - and we go before God together.

Remember, we don’t believe the pastor exonerates the sin, but that since he is considered to be a “holy” man of God that he can give us insight in dealing with our problems and can express mercy and grace to us - his flock. We consider the pastor to be the under-shepherd with Christ being, of course, the Great Shepherd. So, it is similar but still quite different than the Catholic position of confession of sins to the priest.

Catholics agree that only God forgives sins. That he has appointed his Priests as agents is a practical blessing which in no way diminishes the operation of God. Christ speaks through the Priest (and maybe you have to experience this to believe it. It can be amazing). We know, however, that a Priest is likely as great a sinner as we are. We don’t count on HIS holiness (and aren’t we glad about that!), we count on the “assurance” of Christ’s promise to bring forgiveness through this sacrament.

As for “going before God together,” one of the old formulae for confession used to include the Priest’s request that the penitent pray for him. My confessor (I always go to the same priest) still does that.

As to receiving Christ more than once: Baptist theology says that you receive Christ ONCE in your life as your Saviour. If sin occurs or we need reconciliation with God, we confess our sins to God (and perhaps our pastor or brother or sister), He forgives our sin:

Again, this is similar to Catholic Baptism and then reconciliation through sacramental confession. The difference seems to be that Baptists believe in the assurance of salvation via a single faith-act, whereas Catholics believe that Christ has given us the sacraments as means of living in perpetual conversion through his very personal grace.

 

[MGEISING]

ahimsaman72:

… I admit, though, the mystery of the eucharist is quite difficult of a concept for me to understand.

I suggest that you read John 6 - vs 51 - 69. Pay close attention to Vs 60 … kind of takes on the same thing you just quoted above … “difficult for me to understand” …

Something I would seriously pray and meditate about … and pray to the Holy Spirt, whom our Lord left for us to direct us … ask him to show you the truth.

Peace and Merry CHRISTMAS.

Mgeising

 

[MrS]

Katholikos:

I don’t think MrS is directing his comments to anyone personally. He’s a man who sees the stark contrast between original, authentic Christianity and the man-made doctrines of Protestantism that have developed within the last 487 years.

I know Protestants are sincere, having been one, but they’re sincerely wrong.

Please don’t take offense where none is intended. Am I right, MrS?

Peace be with you, Ahimsa.

JMJ Jay

yes, twice… they are sincerely wrong and no offense intended.

By the way, this thread is part of the reference material for an upcoming class on Sola Scriptura/Sola Fide/Oh Sola Mio

 

[MrS]

Katholikos:

This is the definition of Purgatory: the process of purification of the soul after death in preparation for heaven.

To clarify: You believe in universal salvation? Not contingent upon contrition or repentance? Everybody goes to heaven? No penalties for sin? Thus there is no sin? I’m confused.

Thanks, Jay

Glad some one caught this. Not meant to be a trick question, but any sincere individual when discussing how to get to heaven, will eventually admit to the concept of Purgatory, if not by name, at least by what Fr Groeschel calls it: “The Final Rinse”

 

[MrS]

ahimsaman72:

You love Baptists??? Just kidding. I feel I can joke with you and you won’t throw me in the river.

The only point during a service when people will kneel in prayer is actually at the end of the service if they go up to the front of the church to pray. This is the “altar call” so many speak of. It’s a chance to pray, confess sins to the pastor, receive brief counseling, receive Christ as Saviour.

Peace…

Just called my son (devote and active Baptist) and asked him about this. He laughed and said he does not confess his sins to any man… unless he sinned against that man and was asking forgiveness. Why the different understanding? Can your pastor forgive those sins? And if so, by what authority?

Catholics confess sins to God in the manner God directed…, through HIS ministerial priesthood.

 

[mercygate]

MrS:

Just called my son (devote and active Baptist) and asked him about this. He laughed and said he does not confess his sins to any man… unless he sinned against that man and was asking forgiveness. Why the different understanding? Can your pastor forgive those sins? And if so, by what authority?

Catholics confess sins to God in the manner God directed…, through HIS ministerial priesthood.

Yo! S!

ahimsaman72 is a Baptist. They are independent congregations and different pastors or congregations may have slightly different ways of going about things. I know a lot of Evangelicals believe in “accountability partners” – people who get together periodically to “confess” their sins and counsel one another in their Christian walk.

 

[MrS]

mercygate:

Yo! S!

ahimsaman72 is a Baptist. They are independent congregations and different pastors or congregations may have slightly different ways of going about things. I know a lot of Evangelicals believe in “accountability partners” – people who get together periodically to “confess” their sins and counsel one another in their Christian walk.

Yes I am aware of that… I try to read a posters “bio” if there is one.

Different pastors, different ways … absolutly.

In Flint, a city north of me,. there is a main road off the freeway with seven, yes seven churches in one stretch… all right next door to another, some sharing the same parking lots. Of the seven, four are Baptist, or at least include the word in their full name. Makes me realize that what they teach is up to the man or woman hired to teach.

Of course now I have made another uncharitable comment in an adviserial manner. Don’t mean to offend…only tell it like it is. And is means is.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MrS:

Just called my son (devote and active Baptist) and asked him about this. He laughed and said he does not confess his sins to any man… unless he sinned against that man and was asking forgiveness. Why the different understanding? Can your pastor forgive those sins? And if so, by what authority?

Catholics confess sins to God in the manner God directed…, through HIS ministerial priesthood.

There really is no “theology” in the Baptist faith that says one needs to confess their sins to their pastor. I would say the minority of people do this. Let me clarify that most of the time this is done behind closed doors. It is through pastoral counseling that most of this “confessing” is done. On the other hand, I know people with public sins who I’ve seen go before the pastor at the invitation, kneel, pray and confess to the pastor their wrongs. If I mislead anyone, I certainly didn’t mean to. I should have clarified this before.

And, no, my pastor cannot forgive my sins. He can, however, lead and guide us in our faith to avoiding sins.

Hope this helps…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

This is the definition of Purgatory: the process of purification of the soul after death in preparation for heaven.

To clarify: You believe in universal salvation? Not contingent upon contrition or repentance? Everybody goes to heaven? No penalties for sin? Thus there is no sin? I’m confused.

Thanks, Jay

I forgot to answer this one. So many posts have come down the pike, I realized I never answered this one when MrS referred to it.

Yes, I believe in universal salvation - apocastasis. All men will be punished accordingly for their sins - will repent (due to God’s overwhelming grace) and be reconciled to God. Yes, everybody goes to heaven. The penalty for sin can be varying, depending on the persons sins. The outcome is the same. The penalty could be trial by fire for a thousand years. It could be complete darkness. It could be any such punishment as God sees fit.

People will be punished for their sins. There is no escaping the judgement of God. The difference is that all will be judged and received back to God. Sin exists. We commit sin. We will pay for the sin we’ve down. One could call this concept “hyper-purgatory” in that the Catholic idea of purgatory doesn’t go far enough - it doesn’t include purification of the wicked.

I started a thread titled “hell and everlasting punishment” where I had over 300 posts and explained in detail these beliefs and evidences for the doctrine called apocastasis. It is in the apologetic forum under the above title. Maybe you can go there and get more details - as this will steer the thread away from the topic. By the way, this is not a baptist belief - it is something I believe outside of the Baptist faith. It actually started with Catholics!!! Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc.

Peace…

 

[MrS]

Thanks, it does help.

In Catholicism, there is no command or directive for us to go to a priest in confession. But it is apparent that since the priests have been given this authority by God, and the continuity of the Church is more than scriptural, then perhaps there are sinners who need this sacrament. Since we are all sinners, we all should take “advantage” of what God has given His Church. Yes? No?

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Specific sins? “I lost my temper and called my brother an unrepeatable name, twice.” or “I lose my temper.”??

Yes, specific. Again, this is not Baptist doctrine. It is a practice used by some. Pastors who attend seminary are taught pastoral counseling. That is part of the program. You would tell a counselor your feelings, problems, etc. So it is with the local pastor.

Many people I know go through their pastor and have gone through their pastor for marriage counseling specifically. They air all their dirty laundry before him so that he may help them deal with their problems and move forward.

I personally have called pastors at night and had them meet with me at the church to help me deal with different things. It helps alot. Those pastors never asked, “why are you calling me?” They were all willing and able to help. Their role is as the under-shepherd the flock entrusted to their care as long as they are appointed. Christ, of course, being the Chief Shepherd.

Hope this clarifies a little. Everyone seems interested in this aspect, but it never really seemed odd to me or those whom I know have had counseling with pastors.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

MrS:

Thanks, it does help.

In Catholicism, there is no command or directive for us to go to a priest in confession. But it is apparent that since the priests have been given this authority by God, and the continuity of the Church is more than scriptural, then perhaps there are sinners who need this sacrament. Since we are all sinners, we all should take “advantage” of what God has given His Church. Yes? No?

Your welcome friend.

Oh, I thought it was a directive that one must go at least once a year to confess. Maybe I got that one wrong?!?

I have no problem with the sacrament of confession at all. I don’t believe it’s a bad thing at all. Quite the contrary, I believe it can be very helpful to one’s conscience.

Peace…

 

[mercygate]

MrS:

there is no command or directive for us to go to a priest in confession. /QUOTE]

Come again?

 

[MrS]

ahimsaman72:

I

Yes, I believe in universal salvation - apocastasis. All men will be punished accordingly for their sins - will repent (due to God’s overwhelming grace) and be reconciled to God. Yes, everybody goes to heaven. The penalty for sin can be varying, depending on the persons sins. The outcome is the same. The penalty could be trial by fire for a thousand years. It could be complete darkness. It could be any such punishment as God sees fit.

People will be punished for their sins. There is no escaping the judgement of God. The difference is that all will be judged and received back to God. Sin exists. We commit sin. We will pay for the sin we’ve down. One could call this concept “hyper-purgatory” in that the Catholic **idea of purgatory doesn’t go far enough - it doesn’t include purification of the wicked. **

I started a thread titled “hell and everlasting punishment” where I had over 300 posts and explained in detail these beliefs and evidences for the doctrine called apocastasis. It is in the apologetic forum under the above title. Maybe you can go there and get more details - as this will steer the thread away from the topic. By the way, this is not a baptist belief - it is something I believe outside of the Baptist faith. It actually started with Catholics!!! Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc.

Peace…

four comments to the four highlighted areas>>>>

salvation is not universal in that all attain it (say yes to Christ)

all will be judged and the sheep will be separated…

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gifpurgatory won’t go far enough? If you mean permanent condemnation for the condemned wicked…that is hell, or the eternal separation from God, along with Satan and his crew.

Catholics may have started the discussion on this heaven/hell as Christ intended, but the Church could not teach any idea that would define hell as empty. (even the current Pope has studied the concept that hell could be empty IF… but there “ain’t no if”…

 

[mercygate]

MrS:

In Catholicism, there is no command or directive for us to go to a priest in confession.

Come again?

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

Don’t take this the wrong way, Jay, but as far as the “knowing whether you were sincere and were saved”: There’s an analogy of a train. The head car is fact, the second is faith, the last is feelings. That’s the order of your faith. You don’t go on your feelings, you “go” on what the Bible has to say about salvation (the facts). The facts of confession and salvation are in the Bible. You believe the facts, no matter what your emotional experience is.

Some get caught up in the line of thinking such as: “Well, I don’t feel saved. I didn’t cry when I prayed that prayer.” This (in Baptist theology) is basing your faith on feelings and not facts as recorded in Scripture.

Only maturity in your faith as a Baptist settles the question of this idea of “intention” and “feeling” about salvation. It comes with time and study of the Bible and prayer and leaning on your brothers and sisters.

This is the Baptist thinking. The above analogy of fact, faith and feelings comes from a Baptist tract I have had in the past. My explanation was based on that.

I was trying to express (perhaps not successfully) the futility of the Baptist doctrine of “Assurance of Salvation,” or “Once Saved Always Saved,” or “Believer’s Unconditional Security,” or any other name by which the doctrine is known.

The question is, how is one “saved”? And can one be “unsaved”? And if one subsequently has doubts about one’s faith, or “backslides” into sin, does that mean that he only*** thought*** that he was saved when, in fact, he was never really saved at all?

That’s Baptist belief. Or at least that’s what I was taught. There are about 250 kinds of Baptists, all with different beliefs, so it’s hard to define any doctrine except baptism by immersion as “Baptist.” There are the five “distinctives,” however, which all Baptists allegedly hold, whatever their other doctrines may be. One of these is “liberty of conscience” which authorizes every Baptist to interpret doctrine for himself.

Peace, JMJ Jay

 

[MrS]

mercygate:

Come again?

Thanks, me bad.:bowdown:
rephrase… In Catholicism there is no scriptural verse that mandates a Catholic to go to confession.

Additionally, the Church does not rely on only the Scriptures. So, the Tradition, which includes the precepts of the Church, mandates confession at least yearly etc.

These threads make me glad to have correction when necessary… and glad to have three witnesses to the faith… The Church, the Scriptures, and the Magisterium.